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If I understand correctly (which I might not), the Kármán line is roughly the altitude where a "Kármán plane's" upward lift force at the orbital velocity for that altitude would be equal in magnitude to the gravitational downward force.

A simple expression for lift force would be:

$$F_L = \frac{1}{2} \rho v^2 S C_L$$

where $\rho$ is the density at that altitude, S is the aircraft's wing area, and $C_L$ is the aircraft's coefficient of lift.

The gravitational force downward at an altitude $h$ above a given Earth radius $R_E$ would be

$$F_G = \frac{GM_Em}{(R_E+h)^2} $$

where $GM_E$ is Earth's standard gravitational parameter and numerically is about 3.986E+14 m^3/s^2.

Setting those equal gives:

$$ v^2 = \frac{2 GM_E m}{\rho S C_L (R_E+h)^2} $$

Orbital velocity can be gotten from the vis-viva equation:

$$v^2 = \frac{GM_E}{(R_E+h)} $$

and setting those two expressions equal yields

$$ \frac{m}{S} = \frac{1}{2} \rho C_L (R_E+h) $$

Plugging in nominal values for lift coefficient (unity), $R_E+h$ (6378 + 100 km), and an estimated density of 4.575E-07 * 1.225 kg/m^3 from an old NASA standard atmosphere (see the (currently unanswered) question Why does Earth's atmospheric density have a big “knee” around 100 km? Is there a good analytical approximation?), I get a mass to wing surface area of this "Karman plane" of about 1.8 kg/m^2.

This ratio is also called wing loading and a value this low is literally "for the birds" and for paragliders. Values in that article for commercial aircraft are in the low to mid hundreds.

EDIT: The wing loading of the X-15, a plane that actually crossed the Kármán line had a wing-loading of 829 kg/m²!!

Question: What would a Kármán plane look like, a bird, or a plane? In other words, have I done my maths right, and understood the concepts and definitions correctly, and if so, why would the object used to conceptually define the approximate altitude of the Kármán line have a wing loading of about 2 kg/m^2 rather than a realistic airplane?


So far, the only thing I've found within this site about the topic is in one of @MarkAddler's answers (always a good place to start), which says (in part):

von Kármán picked some representative values for $m\over A$ and $C_L$, which I don't know. But I don't need to know.

...but Enquiring minds want to know!

This may be discoverable in Theodore von Kármán's original calculation, which is likely in German. While that didn't lead to exactly 100 km originally, an analysis of that result may lead to an answer.

uhoh
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  • Comments have been moved to chat; please do not continue the discussion here. Before posting a comment below this one, please review the purposes of comments. Comments that do not request clarification or suggest improvements usually belong as an answer, on [meta], or in [chat]. Comments continuing discussion may be removed. – Rory Alsop Mar 08 '23 at 20:05
  • @Cornelis - please don't use Bounties for this purpose. That is not what they are for. If you have a query with part of the question, request clarity in comments - although I think Uhoh covered off your specific challenge anyway. – Rory Alsop Mar 08 '23 at 20:07

3 Answers3

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Based on your initial stipulations, and the wording provided by Wikipedia, the altitude Karman was calculating was the altitude where, at orbital velocity, the lifting effect of aerodynamic forces on an aerospace frame is just sufficient to hold it aloft against gravity. Ergo, a body with sufficient lift to stay aloft at any velocity below orbital speed could, in theory, maintain an orbit at less than the speed dictated by Newtonian physics.

However, where aerodynamics provide lift, they also provide drag. Hence a craft operating in this way would need to provide periodic or continuous thrust, vs. the occasional boost burns needed for some LEO satellites.

It's really not an easy question to answer, nor is why one would want to make such a craft. My estimation is that it would look something related to both the U-2 and the B-2 airframes, but probably lighter and larger than either.


From Wikipedia Kármán line: Kármán's comments:

In the final chapter of his autobiography Kármán addresses the issue of the edge of outer space:

Where space begins… can actually be determined by the speed of the space vehicle and its altitude above the earth. Consider, for instance, the record flight of Captain Iven Carl Kincheloe Jr. in an X-2 rocket plane. Kincheloe flew 2000 miles per hour (3,200 km/h) at 126,000 feet (38,500 m), or 24 miles up. At this altitude and speed, aerodynamic lift still carries 98 per cent of the weight of the plane, and only two per cent is carried by centrifugal force, or Kepler Force, as space scientists call it. But at 300,000 feet (91,440 m) or 57 miles up, this relationship is reversed because there is no longer any air to contribute lift: only centrifugal force prevails. This is certainly a physical boundary, where aerodynamics stops and astronautics begins, and so I thought why should it not also be a jurisdictional boundary? Haley has kindly called it the Kármán Jurisdictional Line. Below this line space belongs to each country. Above this level there would be free space

(Theodore von Kármán with Lee Edson (1967) The Wind and Beyond, page 343)

Hunting.Targ
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    Again, thank you for the invocation. I may come back to this in a handful of days after investigating Karman's equations. – Hunting.Targ Dec 03 '18 at 05:04
  • I hope that is a more informed, if not more enlightened, response. – Hunting.Targ Dec 15 '18 at 04:35
  • I can't up vote twice, looks good though. – uhoh Dec 15 '18 at 06:11
  • A good answer provides proof, this answer does:https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/31738/can-it-be-calculated-that-within-the-kármán-boundary-the-lifting-force-equals-th/31749#31749 – Cornelis Dec 15 '18 at 11:03
  • as a small aside, the block quote starting "...final chapter of his autobiography Kármán addresses the issue..." was likely written by the other author; 1) "autobiography" was published four years after Kármán's death, 2) contains scientifically incorrectly worded statements like " there is no longer any air to contribute lift". – uhoh Dec 18 '18 at 01:30
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    @uhoh I included the quote because, for purposes of the (speculative) question, it seemed more appropriate to me to describe the operative forces literarily rather than with equations, and because I judged the description of operstive forces to be accurate. Karman's comments on the atmosphere' conposition are, AFAICT, 1. incidental to the question, 2. accurate to the knowledge of the time. Thanks for pointing out that the biography may not have been a true autobiography. Gotta watch out for stuff like that! – Hunting.Targ Dec 19 '22 at 09:41
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    @Cornelis "This should definitely be taken with a large pinch of salt as there are many approximations made." While I take and appreciate your point, the math is used to be illustrative, not conclusive. The question asked wasn't a single-concept question, it was more of a design concept question, in which many factors and variables intersect. I addressed the conceptual side, since s – Hunting.Targ Dec 19 '22 at 09:46
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    "the altitude Karman was calculating was the altitude where, at orbital velocity, the lifting effect of aerodynamic forces on an aerospace frame is just sufficient to hold it aloft against gravity." if it is already at orbital velocity, it does not need any further help to stay aloft against gravity, or it is not at orbital velocity in the first place – user721108 Mar 07 '23 at 16:54
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This atmospheric model from NASA, states that above 25km altitude:

$Temp = -131.21 + 0.00299*h$,

$pressure = 2.488*((Temp+273.1)/216.6)^{(-11.388)}$ and

$\rho = pressure / (0.2869*(Temp+273.1))$.

So for 100km we have $\rho$ = 6.006E-06, which is one order of magnitude higher than the one used in the question.

By plugging this number into the final equation I get a wing loading of about 19.45 $kg/m^2$, which is still low compared to today's airplanes but still more reasonable than 1.8 $kg/m^2$. and close to the limits of birds according to Wiki.

Also consider that Kármán calculations did not yield 100km (see this), but a lower value, which was then rounded up to 100km because it was easier to remember. If we consider the Kármán line to be as low as 83.6km, as suggested in one of the comments to the question, we would get $\rho$ = 2.589E-05 and a wing loading of 83.62 $kg/m^2$. This is higher than a Piper Warrior light aircraft, so the Kármán plane is definitely starting to look like a plane, and not like a bird.

On the other hand, $C_L = 1$ might be high (e.g. a 747-200 is stated as having a $C_L = 0.52$ ) and reducing it would reduce the wing loading again.

However, using 83.6km and $C_L = 0.52$ , the result would still be a 40+ wing loading, well beyond a bird max wing loading of 20.

If Kármán used an atmospheric model which yielded similar density values to this and imagined a plane with $C_L = 0.5$ and a wing loading of 40, then indeed he could have drawn the line around 80km.

My answer: yes, the Kármán plane looks like a plane, although probably not like a fighter jet or a big airliner but more like a small light aircraft.

Cornelis
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BlueCoder
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  • The funny thing is that the atmosphere model I linked and the one in the question are probably the same atmosphere model ("US standard atmosphere")... – BlueCoder Oct 15 '18 at 09:43
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    Well, it is not in the answer, it is only in the comment. – BlueCoder Oct 17 '18 at 09:55
  • I thought they might be the same just because they are apparentely both NASA's US Standard Atmosphere model. – BlueCoder Oct 17 '18 at 09:57
  • And I misinterpreted a link in the NASA website that led me to believe the model I provide as being named the "US Standard Atmosphere model" :) – BlueCoder Oct 17 '18 at 09:59
  • Anyway, I found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Standard_Atmosphere that the US Standard Atmosphere model was first published in 1958. As a first step to see if Karman used different number, it might be interesting to try to get the 1958 version and see if it has significantly different density number of 100km altitude compared to the 1976 version. – BlueCoder Oct 17 '18 at 10:01
  • from your webcitation link: A lot of calculations were made, and finally it was reached the conclusion, accepted by all scientist involved, that around an altitude of 100 km .the boundary could be set. A block quote of that might suggest that it's going to be harder than I thought to ever find out what he did, and what model he used. – uhoh Oct 17 '18 at 10:23
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    I have changed the last sentence so that it doesn't convey the possibility that one or the other model is "wrong". We just need to know what values Karman used :) – BlueCoder Oct 17 '18 at 11:02
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    I've been looking for original Karman calculations as well because my interim conclusion is that I'm completely confused by all this. No luck so far. In fact, I think that would be a good question to post! – Organic Marble Oct 17 '18 at 13:09
  • I have learned from related questions that much of Karman's published works are in the California Institute of Technology library. Not a research project I care to engage in right now though (although if there is a summit on this issue in 2019, I'm sure somebody will!) – Hunting.Targ Dec 16 '18 at 19:59
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    @uhoh I have updated the answer by considering 83.6km as the original altitude.. the result is now safely in the plane realm, even with a more realistic C = 0.5 :) – BlueCoder Jan 07 '19 at 10:55
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    Thanks for taking a walk on the Karman side https://i.stack.imgur.com/YApMx.png – uhoh Jan 07 '19 at 11:03
  • The $C_L$ could be still much lower at such high speeds. "So it is completely incorrect to measure a lift coëfficiënt at some low speed (say 200 mph) and apply that lift coëfficiënt at twice the speed of sound" https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/liftco.html – Cornelis Jan 08 '19 at 09:59
  • while the 747 has a cruise $C_L$ of 0.5, its $C_{L_{MAX}}$ is closer to 2.5. Concorde was quite low at 0.8 –  Jan 08 '19 at 10:08
  • In this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lift_coefficient an equation of the lift coëfficiënt and a diagram show its dependence on Mach number. Depending on the angle of attack the $L_C$ becomes near 0.1 at Mach = 10 – Cornelis Jan 09 '19 at 12:08
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This answer will show that the starting point of the question, namely that the lift force $F_L$ would equal the gravitational force $F_G$, is wrong !

The FAI defines the Kármán line as the altitude of 100 km, so a Kármán plane would fly at that altitude.
The lift force for that plane is:
$$ F_L = \ 1/2. \rho v^2 S C_L $$ According to this talk page the lift coëfficiënt for a supersonic airplane is:

$$ C_L = \frac{4\alpha}{\sqrt{M^2 - 1}} $$ where $\alpha$ is the angle of attack in radians and $M$ is the Mach number.
(According to one of the editors instead of $4\alpha$ the numerator could be 4sine($\alpha$), with $\alpha$ in degrees)

To look for the different forces acting on a supersonic Kármán plane we can take the North American X-15 as an example.
With 4$\alpha$ = 2 and $M$ = 25 (first line) the lift coëfficiënt becomes: $C_L$ = 0.08 .

With $\rho$ = 5.6 x 10$^-$$^7$, $v$ = 7.5 km/sec and $S$ = 18.6 the lift force(X-15) = 23.4

$$F_G(gravitational force) = \frac{G M_Em}{(R+h)^2} $$

With $h$ = 100 and $m$ = 7000 the gravitational force(X-15) = 66,667 so $F_L$ < 0.04 % of $F_G$.

So this example shows that the lifting force at that height is only a fraction of the gravitational force !

Because the Kármán plane is supposed to maintain the 100 km altitude with a speed near the orbital velocity, the acceleration downwards to the centre of the Earth has to be taken into account.

It doesn't matter whether the Kármán plane looks like a bird or a plane, there is always a speed near the orbital velocity that is sufficient to keep that plane in orbit.

Cornelis
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  • Comments have been moved to chat; please do not continue the discussion here. Before posting a comment below this one, please review the purposes of comments. Comments that do not request clarification or suggest improvements usually belong as an answer, on [meta], or in [chat]. Comments continuing discussion may be removed. – Rory Alsop Mar 08 '23 at 20:09