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Similar to this question except not about using a machine: What payloads and launch speeds could a sling launcher get using modern materials on the Moon?

How fast could a stone be thrown using a sling while standing on the moon? Could you launch a rock into lunar orbit with a very long slingshot? Google has nothing about this.

Edit: I only said 'of the type whirled around above the head' to clarify that I didn't mean a catapult. Don't assume that that the solution needs to involve anything whirling above the head.

uhoh
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    Orbital Velocity of the Moon is 1.03 km/s. There's no way a human could throw something at 1.03 km/s – Star Man Apr 20 '21 at 16:53
  • I think this depends on how heavy your rope material is – BrendanLuke15 Apr 20 '21 at 17:33
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    The same speed as it could be thrown anywhere else? There's no "g" in omega x r. – Organic Marble Apr 20 '21 at 18:03
  • @StarMan psst.. that 1.03km/s is the moon's speed around earth. (extremely) Low moon orbit is about 1.61km/s – CuteKItty_pleaseStopBArking Apr 20 '21 at 21:22
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    @OrganicMarble The main limiting factor on Earth is air resistance. A stronger thrower could lob a heavier rock at similar speed, but the range of speeds is very limited by $v^2$ in air drag equation. On the Moon you could pump power into spin of the sling as long as you can control it and it doesn't break. – SF. Apr 21 '21 at 06:57
  • Why was the one answer deleted? – Matthew Christopher Bartsh Apr 21 '21 at 14:50
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    Your initial velocity depends only on your slingshot force and that will be the same as on earth. So the projectile should launch at the same speed, only difference being it does not decelerate due to drag and it arcs less due to gravity. But, if the slingshot is the same on the moon as on earth, I would expect to see absolutely no difference in your starting velocity. –  Apr 21 '21 at 16:48
  • What would change is the distance traveled before hitting ground and the velocity required to reach stable orbit or to escape the moon’s gravity field altogether. But the differences would come not from your starting velocity or its cause (the slingshot) but from the weaker gravity field and the lack of atmosphere (and therefore drag). –  Apr 21 '21 at 16:52
  • And without drag to decelerate the rock to some terminal velocity, the rock would simply travel at its starting velocity plus whatever acceleration you get from the weaker gravity. So, no aerodynamic terminal velocity. –  Apr 21 '21 at 16:54
  • @user39728 With a spinning sling shot, you can "pump" more energy into it - spin it faster, your limiting factors being your ability to control it (the pull of centrifugal force) and air drag slowing down the spin of the projectile. Without air drag you can accelerate light projectiles to speeds much higher than on Earth. – SF. Apr 22 '21 at 10:05
  • You're forgetting the viscous friction in the bearings of your centrifugal machine, @SF. Even without air drag, your machine would soon reach a steady state in which the input torque is just enough to keep spinning at constant velocity. So you'll have less resistance from air drag, but viscous friction will still be significant, and your launch velocity will be limited by that. The next limiting factor would be the strength of the centrifugal arm, which would be finite and able to support only so much acceleration before it failed. –  Apr 22 '21 at 19:59
  • @PcMan May I ask what happened to your answer to this question? – Matthew Christopher Bartsh Apr 22 '21 at 20:25
  • @SF The original form of the question said "a slingshot of the type whirled about above the head" which led me to believe it was about manual operations. – Organic Marble Apr 23 '21 at 03:25
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    @OrganicMarble So did I. If you use motors, bearings etc, air resistance stops being the ultimate limiting force, and the next threshold: that of your device ripping itself apart, will be mostly the same on Earth and on the Moon. – SF. Apr 23 '21 at 05:46
  • @OrganicMarble and SF I think you understood correctly the first time. There are other ways that a sling could be held by a man and swung using 'manual operations', besides over the head. Without using motors or bearings. – Matthew Christopher Bartsh Apr 23 '21 at 19:47
  • @MatthewChristopherBartsh Yes, but in this case they are mostly irrelevant (inferior) here - depending on sling, projectile and thrower's strength, these other methods simply achieve near maximum velocity achievable in air withing about half a revolution, so making a full circle will achieve nothing regarding energy and possibly lose accuracy (or alternatively they won't, and the throw strength will be weaker than achievable by spinning.) On the Moon, you'll be able to put more energy into the projectile not limited by air resistance by "pumping" the spin speed gradually... – SF. Apr 26 '21 at 11:34
  • ...so the "spinning over head" technique in most cases will be simply superior to all alternatives - where it comes to a mostly regular manually operated sling with a mostly regular projectile. If you use exceptionally heavy projectile (which will make you lose control of it within half a spin), or an exceptionally inflexible sling with very light projectile (so it resists being spun up), or machinery, things may be different, but these are extremes. In regular case if you throw the average projectile as far as possible, using optimal (for the place) technique, vacuum of the moon will help. – SF. Apr 26 '21 at 11:40

2 Answers2

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Using a sling whirled around above the head, could someone on the moon throw a stone into orbit?

tl;dr: probably deeply suborbital; 1192 meters, 38 seconds, either straight up or downrange at 45 degrees.

And of course even if you had superhuman sling skills, your trajectory would either fly off into space (lunar C3 > 0) or return on an elliptical (C3 <0) trajectory and intersect the surface somewhere. Standing on the Moon a horizontal throw at 1680 m/s would theoretically be in circular orbit at an altitude of 2 meters, but it would just slam into some crater edge or mountain.


@OrganicMarble's

The same speed as it could be thrown anywhere else? There's no $g$ in $\omega \times r$

is insightful but @SF.'s

The main limiting factor on Earth is air resistance. A stronger thrower could lob a heavier rock at similar speed, but the range of speeds is very limited by $v^2$ in air drag equation. On the Moon you could pump power into spin of the sling as long as you can control it and it doesn't break.

is important as well, and the "helicopter method" shown below does just that!

Scientific American's Whistling Sling Bullets Were Roman Troops' Secret Weapon says:

In the hands of an expert, a heavy sling bullet or stone could reach speeds of up to 100 mph (160 km/h): "The biggest sling stones are very powerful — they could literally take off the top of your head," Reid said.

That's 44 m/sec, and the Tod's Workshop video Is a sling as powerful as a gun? demonstrates a 125 ft/sec ~ 38 m/s measurement without trying very hard.

$\sqrt{GM_M/r_M}$ is about 1680 m/s so were only a few percent of orbital velocity.

Okay, but how suborbital would 44 m/s get you?

If we already know we're profoundly suborbital in terms of speed, we can estimate the maximum altitude (shooting straight up, probably killing yourself when it falls back on you) from conservation of energy, and maximum distance from a parabolic trajectory at 45 degrees.

Max height:

$$mv^2 = mgh$$

$$h = v^2/g$$

for 44 m/s and $g=GM_M/r_M^2=$ 1.62 m/s^2 gives 1191 meters!

The likelihood that it hits you on the way down is therefore small.

Wikipedia's Kinematic quantities of projectile motion give us

$$x(t) = v_0 t \cos\theta$$

$$y(t) = v_0 t \sin\theta - \frac{1}{2}g t^2$$

and solving for the time $t$ of the 2nd zero of $y$ and putting that back to solve for $x$ we get

$$x_2 = \frac{2 v_0^2}{g} \cos \theta \sin \theta$$

and using

$$\cos \theta \sin \theta = \frac{1}{2} \sin 2 \theta$$

$$x_2 = \frac{v_0^2}{g}\sin 2\theta$$

we see the familiar result that the maximum range is at $\theta = $ 45° and it will be again! a distance of $v_0^2/g =$ 1191 meters!

In both cases the flight time is about 38 seconds.

This will be much further than Allan Shephard's golf ball shot 1, 2

Alan Shephard golfing on the Moon Alan Shephard golfing on the Moon

But seriously... in a Space Suit?

The truly stellar and fascinating video Slinging Target Practice - Six Techniques shows six slingshot techniques; Helicopter, Figure 8, Byzantine, Overhand, Underhand and Greek.

The "helicopter" technique seems best suited for suited astronauts. As long as the sling is not too long, you get it moving overhead with a smooth arm motion then just use small deflections to speed it up overhead.

You will be needing either some good wrist articulation from your suit, or have to make do with using elbow or shoulder to pump speed into the helicopter.

I think this could work, and will get you close to a 1 kilometer impact distance and 38 second flight time of your very suborbital projectile.

screenshot from Slinging Target Practice - Six Techniques https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6kdRs4x1fs

above: Helicopter technique, below: all six for comparison

screenshot from Slinging Target Practice - Six Techniques https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6kdRs4x1fs

uhoh
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    If you were standing on the top of the highest mountain on the moon (maybe it would need to me near the equator of the moon?) then your stone's circular orbit (or larger elliptical orbit) would always have altitude at least 2 meters above the highest mountain, so I am not convinced it would crash into the ground. And what if the sling moved the stone in an inclined circle before it is released? Then the release point and hence perilune of the orbit could be much more than 2 meters above the top of the highest mountain. – Matthew Christopher Bartsh Aug 15 '21 at 03:18
  • @MatthewChristopherBartsh I think you are referring to "Standing on the Moon a horizontal throw at 1680 m/s would theoretically be in circular orbit at an altitude of 2 meters, but it would just slam into some crater edge or mountain." The moment it starts moving at orbital velocity we can say it is "in orbit" so technically it doesn't matter how far it gets. Whether it makes it only a few kilometers or all the way around the Moon several times over, it will "just slam into some crater edge or mountain" fairly soon as the Moon's gravity is pretty lumpy especially at such a low altitude. – uhoh Aug 15 '21 at 03:24
  • @MatthewChristopherBartsh So while I certainly agree with you, what I wrote is still okay I think. If you need further convincing you can ask a new question about lifetimes of extremely low altitude lunar orbits. I talk about mascons and spatial harmonics of the lunar gravity field at large distance in this answer, but in the present case they would be particularly influential only kilometers above the surface. – uhoh Aug 15 '21 at 03:28
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    Good point uhoh, about it still being in orbit if it is moving at orbital velocity. I hadn't thought of that. Making it at least several times around the moon is what I would have in mind by "into orbit", though. The question asks only about getting into orbit, not about staying there for a long time. How high above the top of the highest mountain would the launch point need to be so that despite the lumpiness of the moon's gravity (another thing I hadn't thought of --well done) the stone could orbit for a long time? – Matthew Christopher Bartsh Aug 15 '21 at 03:32
  • @MatthewChristopherBartsh The effect of the Moon's lumpy gravity on a low orbit will be chaotic; two trajectories that differ only slightly will increasingly diverge over time and will end up intersecting the surface at completely different times and places. There's no simple answer. – uhoh Aug 15 '21 at 03:56
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    The lumpy gravity of the moon would make it unlikely that the stone would return precisely to its launch point, whether the orbit was circular or elliptical. So if the stone were launched from at (or even just near) the top of the highest mountain, the stone would probably miss the mountain completely having completed one orbit, and the make many more orbits before eventually hitting it. So the lumpiness of the gravity might help the stone make several orbits rather than just one orbit. If the direction of the stone were chosen carefully, there might not be any other high ground in its way. – Matthew Christopher Bartsh Aug 15 '21 at 21:18
  • @MatthewChristopherBartsh I really like your new question! I started an answer then realized it's quite a challenge. I'll be doing some numerical simulations today on some very simple cases. – uhoh Aug 15 '21 at 23:04
  • "@MatthewChristopherBartsh So while I certainly agree with you, what I wrote is still okay I think. If you need further convincing you can ask a new question about lifetimes of extremely low altitude lunar orbits. I talk about mascons and spatial harmonics of the lunar gravity field at large distance in this answer, but in the present case they would be particularly influential only kilometers above the surface. – uhoh Aug 15 at 3:28". This was helpful. Would you care to suggest another topic or two that I might try to ask a good question about? – Matthew Christopher Bartsh Nov 26 '21 at 16:10
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Looking at the question you are linking I would be inclined to say that it is possible assuming the astronaut's suit is flexible enough and the thrower has enough endurance. (Although, remember, the low periapsis. Combine that with the instability of lunar orbits and you can't say that it will stay in orbit!)

I don't think spinning it above your head is the right approach. Rather, look at the hammer throw. Take your pebble (the mass limit is going to be pretty low), hook a cable to it. Most of the cable is on a spool on your suit. Stand on a peak as there will be some sag of the cable. Start spinning around, maintain a constant velocity but keep letting out cable. The pebble reaches orbital speed without exerting all that much force on the spinner.

Loren Pechtel
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