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If a planeswalker than has been turned into a creature (not a planeswalker that turns itself into a creature with "prevent all damage" like Gideon) takes Infect damage, what happens?

I know that Infect damage is applied as -1/-1 counters, and I know that the planeswalker will have both damaged marked on it, as well as have it's loyalty reduced, but what I'm unsure of is if the -1/-1 counters further reduce the loyalty or if they only impact the power / toughness.

As a follow-on, do the -1/-1 counters stay on the planeswalker when it is no longer a creature? And if so, could this be used to prevent a Gideon from using it's "become a creature" ability (or at least kill it if it does)?

doppelgreener
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cdeszaq
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4 Answers4

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Loyalty counters are different and separate from the -1/-1 counters produced by infect. -1/-1 counters affect power and toughness only. If an infected Planeswalker reverts to a non-creature, the -1/-1 counters will have no effect. They will remain until otherwise removed, or until the permanent changes zones.

Non-creature Planeswalker vs Infect Damage

  • Lose loyalty equal to the infect damage per rule 119.3c.
  • Do not gain infect counters. Rule 119.3d only applies to creatures.

Creature Planeswalker vs Infect Damage

  • Lose loyalty equal to the infect damage per rule 119.3c.
  • Gain -1/-1 counters equal to the infect damage per rule 119.3d.

Example

Gideon, Champion of Justice has five loyalty counters and five -1/-1 counters. If he resolves his zero ability to become a creature, Gideon will die the next time state-based actions are checked.

Planeswalkers are not subject to the same state-based action where a player with ten poison counters automatically loses the game. Planeswalkers cannot gain poison counters.

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Rainbolt
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  • How would a Planeswalker even lose a game? I don't see this worth you mention. – ikegami Mar 04 '14 at 20:03
  • @ikegami Good catch. I further qualified the statement with an "in my opinion" clause, so that you now lose the ability to argue with it. – Rainbolt Mar 04 '14 at 20:35
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    I really thing the last line could just be deleted. The planeswalker doesn't have 'infect' counters: he has -1/-1 counters that were dealt to a creature. shrug – corsiKa Mar 04 '14 at 20:49
  • @corsika Corrected "infect counter" to "poison counter". Thanks for the suggestion. – Rainbolt Mar 04 '14 at 21:08
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    I would just delete the last paragraph outright, honestly - it IMHO just heightens the confusion by even being mentioned. – Steven Stadnicki Mar 04 '14 at 22:06
  • @StevenStadnicki I am well aware that some believe the last paragraph is extraneous. I do not see the correlation between "extraneous" and "confusing". Please clarify how the last paragraph is confusing after my most recent edit. – Rainbolt Mar 04 '14 at 22:33
  • John, the reason everyone finds the last paragraph so confusing is that you're implicitly responding to the idea that a planeswalker with 10 counters of some type would die, analogous to a player with 10 poison counters losing. But no one ever said that, and most of us wouldn't have thought of it if you hadn't said anything. Planeswalkers don't follow the same rules as players. So we have to read your "clarification" and infer what you're trying to clarify. – Cascabel Mar 04 '14 at 22:35
  • If you really want to say it, it might be better written as "But they're just -1/-1 counters, not poison counters - only players get poison counters. They can only kill Gideon by reducing his toughness to zero." But again, you're kind of confusing the issue by making the reader think "wait, why would he have gotten poison counters? Is there something here that would try to put poison counters on him?" – Cascabel Mar 04 '14 at 22:41
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    @Jefromi Infect produces three types of damage depending on what it hits. *Players* gain *poison* counters. *Planeswalkers* lose *loyalty* counters. *Creatures* gain *-1/-1* counters. I felt that my answer would be incomplete without mentioning all three. I am open to comments regarding the correctness of the statement, but I cannot respect useless comments. Ikegami's opinion was welcomed and respected. Corsika had something useful to add. Further repeats were simply redundant. – Rainbolt Mar 04 '14 at 23:18
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    @John Exactly - we're talking about creatures and planeswalkers here, not players, so we're only talking about two of those things. Your most recent revision is certainly the least confusing, to the point of not being that much of an issue. I was only trying to explain the confusion that several of us were obviously seeing here; if you're just going to dismiss my comments as useless or repetitive, I won't bother trying to help more. – Cascabel Mar 05 '14 at 00:04
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    I think the last paragraph is helpful. I'm not much of a rules lawyer, and planeswalkers are like players in a way (they can be attacked as players, and isn't the player supposed to be a planeswalker?) so I was wondering whether they would also get poison counters. – RemcoGerlich Mar 05 '14 at 12:53
  • @RemcoGerlich So, I understand where you're coming from, but it's really just a flavor thing. The best way to clarify this for yourself is not by learning details like "planeswalkers can't get poison counters", it's just learning that planeswalkers aren't players. They're totally distinct in the rules. If something says "player" it means player, and if it says "planeswalker" it means planeswalker. (Door to Nothingness is not Dreadbore.) Yes, they can be attacked, and you can redirect damage from their controller to them, but those are exceptions, not the rule. – Cascabel Mar 05 '14 at 19:30
  • John, what would you think about something like this for your last paragraph: "While infect damage is dealt to players in the form of poison counters, Planeswalkers are not players, so they cannot gain poison counters. The damage can only kill Gideon by reducing his loyalty to zero, or Gideon-turned-creature by reducing his toughness to zero." It still clarifies that planeswalkers don't get poison counters, but without making it seem like it's a special case difference between players and planeswalkers, or needing to discuss the SBA directly. – Cascabel Mar 05 '14 at 19:37
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If it's both a creature and a planeswalker, it would gain -1/-1 counters and lose loyalty counters.

119.3c Damage dealt to a planeswalker causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from that planeswalker.

119.3d Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither and/or infect causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.

The removal of loyalty counters is not conditional.

As a follow-on, do the -1/-1 counters stay on the planeswalker when it is no longer a creature?

Yes. Counters will cease to exist if the object changes zone[CR 121.2]. Otherwise, they stay until something explicitly removes them.

And if so, could this be used to prevent a Gideon from using it's "become a creature" ability (or at least kill it if it does)?

Yes. If he had -1/-1 counters equaling his toughness, he'd die virtually immediately after transforming into a creature.

Note that Gideon, Champion of Justice's indestructibility would not help, since the State-Based action in question kills rather than destroys[CR 704.5f].

Note that Gideon Jura's ability to prevent damage prevents the gain of -1/-1 counters from infect damage. You'd have to turn him into a creature another way or give him the -1/-1 counters some other way.

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ikegami
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  • whoa, why the downvote? – ikegami Mar 04 '14 at 19:32
  • Ah, the reader was probably thinking of one Gideon and I was looking at the other. Fixed. – ikegami Mar 04 '14 at 19:38
  • In the case of Gideon Jura, if he is turned into a creature not by his ability (see linked question in OP), does he still prevent the damage? – cdeszaq Mar 04 '14 at 19:45
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    @cdeszaq, No. GJ has an activated ability that, in part, creates a continuous effect that "prevents all damage that would be dealt to him this turn". If you don't activate the ability, you don't gain its effect. He would need the static ability "Prevent all damage that would be dealt to GJ as long as he is a creature." (Btw, you can activate GJ's ability even if he's already a creature.) – ikegami Mar 04 '14 at 20:01
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While the planeswalker is a creature, it will have 3 relevant characteristics: power, toughness, and loyalty. When that creature planeswalker takes infect damage, it will lose that many loyalty counters and it will gain that many -1/-1 counters. The -1/-1 counters only affect power and toughness.

In general, permanents do not lose any counters when they change type. This does mean that if a planeswalker becomes a creature, and it has enough -1/-1 counters that its toughness is 0, it will die.

doppelgreener
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murgatroid99
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-1/-1 counters reduce power/toughness (or remove +1/+1 counters if there are any present). They do not affect loyalty counters.

Generally, any kind of counter can exist on any kind of permanent (or even a spell, such as with Lightning Storm). -1/-1 counters on a planeswalker simply don't do anything under normal circumstances -- that is, until the planeswalker becomes a creature.

Brian S
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