29

I'm a junior software developer from a non-programming background, having finished a workplace learning programme to land this position. Since I've picked up the basics, I realise that I lack in some areas due to my non-programming background. I've been tempted to work on my personal programming projects during my lunch breaks, which I spend at my desk, but have been put off because I was unsure if this is acceptable or professional behaviour.

The aim of this is to get experience with other areas of programming by making software that I would personally find useful, and taking initiative to expand on my knowledge. For some further context, I have work on the side where I run an eBay store which sees a reasonable amount of traffic.

My question is: Is it unprofessional or unacceptable to develop my personal projects using my work PC during my lunch breaks? Does the answer change if my personal projects are of a commercial nature? (IE: Developing against the eBay API to streamline manual processes for my side business).

Joe
  • 16,050
  • 3
  • 40
  • 76
Longisland
  • 1,042
  • 1
  • 9
  • 13
  • Additionally, here is a related question which I've read, but doesn't quite fit to my situation: https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/7038/is-it-okay-to-work-on-personal-projects-in-my-spare-time-at-work – Longisland Aug 24 '17 at 12:55
  • In general you cannot use company equipment for your own personal projects. – Neo Aug 24 '17 at 13:05
  • @JoeStrazzere - I've not brought this up with them yet as I was unsure of the repercussions and implications. Given the answers, I'll probably just let it be and not ask, or do it. – Longisland Aug 24 '17 at 13:13
  • Related, possible dupe: Is it acceptable to work on my business during lunch/before work? – David K Aug 24 '17 at 13:14
  • 1
    @DavidK - I see how the eBay part relates to this, however the overall aim of the personal projects is to develop my software development skills which are related to my job, and not something entirely different as is the case with the linked question. – Longisland Aug 24 '17 at 13:18
  • 15
    @Donglecow This is generally considered a bad idea, as the answer show, but asking your manager if its okay would be totally acceptable, and unlikely to have any repercussions. – mwbl Aug 24 '17 at 13:18
  • This depends on the scope and purpose of the "personal project". For example, suppose you want to make some simple tool(s) to improve your work productivity, and you wouldn't mind sharing it with your manager/coworkers. Something like that might be something you could work on in the right circumstances. – Brandin Aug 24 '17 at 13:25
  • @Brandin I suppose what I'm working on could be with colleagues. It would be useful to them if they run an eBay store. At the moment it's just to harvest my orders but will eventually generate label sheets with the recipient's address which is quite time consuming! – Longisland Aug 24 '17 at 13:28
  • @Donglecow he means useful for work like automating a process – SaggingRufus Aug 24 '17 at 13:31
  • @SaggingRufus - My mistake, I see now. Thanks for pointing that out. – Longisland Aug 24 '17 at 13:33
  • Does your current workplace typically use eBay for their business? If no, then no, you should not work on that at work. Find something at least related to your current work that you could sell (figuratively) to your boss and coworkers. – Brandin Aug 24 '17 at 14:16
  • 3
    It would likely make you more productive if you took an actual lunch break and got away from work for awhile. – HLGEM Aug 24 '17 at 16:47
  • If you want to do it, don't ask for permission and don't talk about it or publicize it. Unless your workplace is locked down like some of the draconian top-secret fortresses folks here work in, no one will REALLY care about a little dabbling as long as your side stuff doesn't interfere or compete with your day job. But if you ask... Of course they're going to say "no" out of an abundance of caution. – teego1967 Aug 24 '17 at 17:59
  • 2
    It is inappropriate to WORK during your lunch break. Lunch break is for having lunch, and for having a break from work. – gnasher729 Aug 24 '17 at 20:46
  • 2
    Very much depends on the workplace. On the engineering side of the BBC it was quite strongly encouraged. The BBC claimed ownership of any IP as does pretty much any company - but in practice that was run as "right of first refusal" and they would sometimes give their blessing to "homers" (or locally, "home office" projects). Several British hi-fi and electronics companies started that way... The BBC benefited too, from expertise gained, as well as official "forks" of unofficial projects. Don't know if that's still true today, but it certainly was in the 1980s. – user_1818839 Aug 25 '17 at 11:40
  • @BrianDrummond - Thanks for pointing that out. I think the polarising opinions here are due to that difference in company cultures, and it seems most of the answers and comments are from some quite strict or formal workplaces as opposed to ones that are more laid back about that sort of thing. – Longisland Aug 25 '17 at 12:42
  • Also not sure why this was put on hold. My specific question was regarding the professionalism and appropriateness in general, not about workplace specific policies or agreements? – Longisland Aug 25 '17 at 12:44
  • Appropriateness ... if it's theft from the employer ... no. If it's CPD (continuing professional development) ... yes. I agree with the "talk to your boss" especially if the company has an established policy on it. Sell (but don't over-sell) the benefits to the company (if I knew Javascript better I could ...) and abide by the company's limits. At the BBC, a handful of resistors might be fair game, microprocessors would not. One lunchtime, in a well known electro-junk store in Tottenham Court Road, I ran into the (Deputy?) Director of Engineering... – user_1818839 Aug 25 '17 at 13:10
  • Why is this on hold?! – Chris Cirefice Aug 28 '17 at 12:35
  • What is the scope of these projects? If you're trying to make something to use or sell that's way different than, say, making a 'testing ground' app that you can use to try out logic and whatnot. – Ethan The Brave Aug 28 '17 at 19:53
  • @EthanTheBrave The scope would be purely for personal use. An example was working with the eBay API to automate a part of the process for my side work. Other examples would be to write scripts to automate our software builds, manage our support rotas, etc, in the office. Not things I have been asked to do, but things that I and others would find useful. – Longisland Aug 29 '17 at 07:43

8 Answers8

73

Don't do this

Yeah it's pretty unprofessional - and it probably gives your employer IP rights over anything you develop this way. Your contract should specify the exact details but even if there is no specific clause that doesn't mean you are in the clear. Did I mention not to do this?

EDIT

In a recent comment OP you gave further examples of the sort of thing you might do:

Other examples would be to write scripts to automate our software builds, manage our support rotas, etc, in the office. Not things I have been asked to do, but things that I and others would find useful.

The main body of my answer is in response to the sort of work that was originally talked about (doing things for the side business), these latest examples are an altogether different proposition as you are doing things for your employer and learning as you go. In this sort of scenario I'd suggest it is most likely fine - I'd suggest checking in with your manager as a courtesy, especially since they might be able to give you direction on the sorts of things that would be most useful. But I'd be surprised if they had a real problem with it.

The answer regarding things for the eBay business or any other possible commercial venture (even if there is two-birds - one stone situation) is still an emphatic don't do this.

motosubatsu
  • 107,822
  • 51
  • 290
  • 367
  • Great answer. This is what you do: Bring your own laptop into work. During lunch go somewhere offsite and work on it there. Work computers should not mix with your side gigs. – Pete B. Aug 24 '17 at 15:47
  • @DevNull agree, that is why I said "work offsite". Perhaps my "bring it to work" comment confuses you. I would leave the laptop in my car, or if I did bring it to my desk, not turn it on. I would not connect it to the work LAN. I was thinking a place like Starbucks or somewhere else if internet is needed. – Pete B. Aug 25 '17 at 12:53
  • @PeteB. Somehow I completely missed the "go somewhere offsite" bit. Point taken. I'd still argue that the employee might be better off getting something more discreet (tablet, large phone, etc) and doing some reading rather than engaging in side work, as the IP rights details mentioned by motosubatsu still apply. – Cloud Aug 25 '17 at 12:54
  • With the information OP gave in response to my comment, I don't believe this is a valid answer anymore as it seems to assume that he's making something 'for himself' and not just 'something extra' there at the company. It is the norm (in my experience) for developers to make small tools in their free time like what he's talking about. – Ethan The Brave Aug 29 '17 at 12:15
  • @EthanTheBrave the first example he gives in response to your comment is the side business work, which was what he talks about in the question and this answer is based on. The examples of things like automating processes for the office I would say are a different story, totally normal and fine to be doing those. – motosubatsu Aug 29 '17 at 12:26
23

Anything you develop using company resources belongs to the company

So anything you develop on their machine is theirs its as simple as that. Personally I would view it was unprofessional and an unacceptable use of company resources. So do your personal work on your personal PC and personal time.

When you are at work, focus on your work.

I use my lunch break to write documentation and learn things that will help me in my job. If you go home for lunch do what ever you want. When you are on the employers premises, you probably shouldn't be developing things that are not for work.

SaggingRufus
  • 14,961
  • 9
  • 51
  • 64
  • What about if I bring in my personal laptop and use that during my lunch break? Or would this still come across badly? – Longisland Aug 24 '17 at 13:01
  • 1
    When you are at work, focus on your work. I use my lunch break to write documentation and learn things that will help me in my job. If you go home for lunch do what ever you want. If you are on the employers premises, I wouldn't do it. – SaggingRufus Aug 24 '17 at 13:04
  • @MisterPositive good point! – SaggingRufus Aug 24 '17 at 13:05
  • 1
    "I use my lunch break to write documentation and learn things that will help me in my job." - That's largely what these personal projects are for though. For example, many of my work tasks are to work with harvesting data from APIs and manipulating it. These personal projects work with those aspects too, but are not accessing the same APIs I use in work. Would this not be developing my skills and making me better at my job? I don't mean to come across as argumentative, I'm just unclear on where the distinction lies here. – Longisland Aug 24 '17 at 13:10
  • You still can't do personal projects. Use that time to do research and look at existing programs. I don't see any good that can come from personal developing on company resources/time – SaggingRufus Aug 24 '17 at 13:30
  • 8
    @Donglecow If you're doing things that further your understanding of work-related topics, you're presumably okay with the company laying claim to anything you make, in which case it's not as bad as working on something you might want to monetize yourself as a so-called "side hussle." That being said, it's still a bad idea, because you may integrate a plugin or something that's free for personal use (but not for commercial use) without thinking about it and thereby get the company in trouble if they do start using it. You should at least talk to your superiors about doing this. – Steve-O Aug 24 '17 at 13:52
  • "Anything you develop using company resources belongs to the company" Is this actually legally true? – JollyJoker Aug 24 '17 at 15:22
  • 12
    The phrase "lunch break" contains an important word -- break. – Chris H Aug 24 '17 at 15:36
  • @JollyJoker No. (At least, not universally.) – bye Aug 24 '17 at 15:45
  • Anything you develop using company resources belongs to the company this may not be true. Some companies off this separation as a benefit. – IDrinkandIKnowThings Aug 24 '17 at 15:45
  • @DrEval Its in any contract I've ever seen. – SaggingRufus Aug 24 '17 at 15:58
  • I use my lunch to unplug for half an hour to an hour and work on personal projects (on my personal laptop), veg on YouTube/reddit, or go get lunch with my coworkers. Lunch time is free time in my book, and using it to relax makes me more productive in the long run. – SethWhite Aug 24 '17 at 16:36
  • 1
    @ChrisH Im not good at breaks... – SaggingRufus Aug 24 '17 at 16:49
  • 1
    Just remember, that the company resources not only include the PC, it also includes the internet, electricity, and other things that you are using even though you have your own PC. – DarkCygnus Aug 24 '17 at 16:54
  • @GrayCygnus exactly! – SaggingRufus Aug 24 '17 at 17:04
  • So, unless you go with your own PC, using your portable usb Wifi or phone tethering, and plug your charger on a public socket, all this during your "lunch" break then I would not worry about any property rights – DarkCygnus Aug 24 '17 at 17:08
  • 1
    "I use my lunch break to write documentation..." Why are you writing documentation during your break? Are you not getting time for it during paid hours? That's a problem if so. – jpmc26 Aug 24 '17 at 17:15
  • @jpmc26 I am not paid and my work does not expect it from me. They encourage me to take breaks. I just don't. Before I became a developer my past job (as illegal as it was) did not allow me to take breaks. I was young and stupid and believed them. Now, even when im on break, im still coding in my head or thinking of the documentation I will write. So in my mind, I may as well just do it. – SaggingRufus Aug 24 '17 at 17:36
  • +1 for "when at work, focus on work". You could see yourself getting distracted and focusing more on what you are going to work on during lunch break than what you are actually supposed to be working on. Best to separate work and personal projects whenever possible. – J Sargent Aug 24 '17 at 17:41
  • "When you are at work, focus on your work." I think there's a bit of a work/life balance problem here. You are free to write documentation during your lunchbreak if you want to, but there's no reason to do any work during this time. There's a reason why they are called "breaks". – Steve Smith Aug 30 '17 at 11:59
  • @SteveSmith I agree, like I said in previous comments, I terrible at taking breaks. If you are going to work through your breaks anyway, may as well do your actual work I guess was my point. – SaggingRufus Aug 30 '17 at 13:02
15

I'm going to take a slightly different tack to the current answers:

Ask your manager.

They are best suited to advise you on company policy/politics regarding the matter, if the company is incredibly strict about this sort of thing then the answer will probably be don't do it. If the company likes it's employees to work on personal projects and wants to support them then you'll probably get a go ahead.

As mentioned by @Johns-305, if it's for personal gain then you're probably best not doing it.

If you do go ahead and work on your projects get an email from your manager confirming if the company is likely to claim ownership over them. Once you have that I'd suggest open sourcing the projects so that there's no doubt about who owns the projects and if they do turn out to be beneficial to the company then they are able to make use of them.

Backstory: At my current company myself and another employee both work on personal projects in our free time, this sometimes uses company equipment and software, sometimes it's using our personal laptops. Higher ups are perfectly fine with us doing it and the company has no commercial interest in the work we do. It doesn't affect our ability to perform other duties and if anything helps expand our skills and knowledge.

Stevoisiak
  • 1,590
  • 3
  • 13
  • 30
RobbG
  • 296
  • 1
  • 6
  • 1
    Your manager might be wrong. If your company policy/contract says they own your lunchtime IP but your boss doesn't care and it goes to court, your bosses opinion isn't going to be very important for long. – bye Aug 24 '17 at 15:47
  • 1
    @DrEval, maybe so, IANAL but if you've been informed by a representative of the company (your manager) that the company's stance on the matter is that they don't give a damn about your project then that would be pretty strong evidence that they don't lay claim to it. It would depend on the wording of your contract though, it may say that they claim ownership over everything regardless of when or how it's done. Would the same apply to if you wrote a novel or did artwork during your lunch break? I don't know but their manager is in the best position to advise them. – RobbG Aug 24 '17 at 15:52
12

Never do ANY development on a work PC that is not work related. Your project could arguably become the property of the company, and porting it from your work PC to your personal devices could be construed as theft.

DON'T DO IT

IDrinkandIKnowThings
  • 49,880
  • 18
  • 123
  • 210
Old_Lamplighter
  • 159,693
  • 108
  • 436
  • 585
11

It depends greatly on the policies of you employer. However, personal commercial project are clearly inappropriate. There are all sorts of legal issues around this that neither you or your employer want to deal with. So, don't do it.

However, personal projects that are 'community' projects or could otherwise benefit your employer are grey area that you can legitimately ask your manager about. Many software companies actually encourage this.

For example, if your company users SuperMegaCRMPro, Gold Edition and your personal side project is to convert it's weird error messages into a human readable format, that would benefit your employer and the entire SMCP community.

To comment on the ownership issue, yes, the company can claim ownership and full rights to the software but, there are also practical issues as well. Basically, Worldwide Widgets Incorporated has no hope of monetizing SuperMegaCRMPro Error Converter so, well, they just won't even try. There are lots of such tools out there.

DTRT
  • 4,870
  • 1
  • 15
  • 24
2

A lot of people are saying "Don't do it!" as if everyone's personal projects they could make during lunch breaks are going to be the next best thing after sliced bread or something. Let's be realistic here people...

As long as:

  • you don't plan to re-use parts of the things you developed on the company computer for your own personal projects later and don't care if the company owns the IP you make within that scope
  • your manager/supervisor is okay with you spending off-work time (such as lunch breaks) for personal development
  • your work on your personal project does not interfere with your actual work time or duties

I say go for it!

Heck, if it turns out to be something useful that the company you work at can make use of you could even pitch it to your manager etc. (Companies often organize hackathons or personal-development-days for this very reason.)

Ceiling Gecko
  • 179
  • 3
  • 5
  • 7
    I don't have enough rep to downvote this. I know someone who worked on a personal project at lunch time. He made such good progress they assumed he did it more than at lunch and demoted him. This is just dangerous to do on so many levels. It wasn't a bad employer, either. I liked working there. – Almo Aug 24 '17 at 15:05
  • 1
    As Almo stated, this is likely going to end badly for the OP if this advice is heeded. – Old_Lamplighter Aug 24 '17 at 15:09
  • 8
    @Almo I'd have to say that your argument there is based solely on anecdotal evidence. Judging by your story, this person you knew either didn't communicate his intentions properly to the management (my second point) or his pet project was in fact interfering with his regular work (my third point). – Ceiling Gecko Aug 24 '17 at 15:17
  • I just used him as an example. You have given very bad advice, and the votes on the different answers here show it. – Almo Aug 24 '17 at 15:28
  • 2
    Almo raises very valid concerns. The accusations of theft and theft of services are very real concerns. Your advice fails to take into account that regardless of his own free time being used on his project, he is still using company resources to work on it. @almo's friend was certainly lucky to get off with a demotion. Your advice would certainly jeopardize the future employment of the OP, if heeded. – Old_Lamplighter Aug 24 '17 at 15:35
  • "But your honour, some random stack exchange user told me to go for it. Does that really count for nothing? Here - I'm logged in. Type something for him, starting with the at symbol and his username. He'll straighten you out". – bye Aug 24 '17 at 15:48
  • 3
    The problem is in the OP he clearly states it is working on something for his side business which, yeah sure it's probably not the next google but he does state that it "sees a reasonable amount of traffic" so that falls under your first point, and the second point doesn't apply since it's a commercial venture not "personal development". The OP can do this and, quite possibly, maybe even probably nothing will come of it but when it comes to a commercial venture it's not something I'd take the risk on personally. – motosubatsu Aug 24 '17 at 16:40
  • If he's dead set on doing this at work, "communicate his intentions properly to the management" or "asking permission" needs to involve an attorney, not your personal opinion. His manager "may be cool with it," but even he may not be authorized to permit this activity, and ownership of IP can be trumped by clauses in his contract or outright steamrolled during arbitration. It's a bad idea all around. – Ivan Aug 24 '17 at 17:17
  • What if the employee was working on his/her master's thesis during the lunch break? Ooops, can't defend/publish it now, and need to start from scratch. Really bad advice. – Cloud Aug 25 '17 at 12:52
  • @DevNull I'd hope he'd (and some of the commenters) at least have read my first point which states that it should not be work which you plan to use later personally or you don't want the company to own. – Ceiling Gecko Aug 29 '17 at 11:20
1

As others have said, no way do this on a work computer, however in the comments you ask if it is OK to bring in your personal computer and use that instead. I want to address that.

First, check your contract, it still may be company property if you do it on site. Some companies don't even allow you to work a second job period. Next check with your boss, some might have a problem with this and some might not. Be guided by what he/she tells you. If you change bosses, check again.

If you are given specific permission, then be very careful to not have your personal computer open except at lunch time. And be scrupulous about not extending your lunch because your were working on something interesting. One of the main worries managers would have with this is that you would be using their work hours to work on your projects. Make it clear that you are not.

HLGEM
  • 142,324
  • 26
  • 258
  • 516
1

What you're doing is great, it shows you're really enthusiastic about improving your skills but...

The best place for personal projects is at home, get your friends involved, have a few beers and build something cool. You'll learn a lot from pair programming.

If you want to improve while at work, talk to your manager and ask for allotted time to work on tutorials and hack projects at work. Your company should invest in R&D it can lead to amazing breakthroughs and it increases dev morale.

In my first agency I did just this, most of the projects were great for learning but not much more. But one of our hackdays really impressed everyone and led to a very cool product.

Pixelomo
  • 2,790
  • 1
  • 17
  • 24