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Without disclosing too much detail, a project that myself (the only junior on the project) and the team that I work in had to finish a 7 month project in 3 months. This meant the whole team had to work some crazy hours to get it done on time.

So my question is, is it commonplace to not get paid for doing such hours?

(Edit - Working in the UK)

Old_Lamplighter
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Tfish
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5 Answers5

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Yes, which is one reason why so many of us are contractors/consultants. If you're with a good company, they will compensate you with either comp time, or an IDGAF attitude towards what you are doing during slow times.

If they are a bad company and don't compensate you, update your resume and prepare to move on. A family member of mine was working so much uncompensated overtime at one position, he realized that his hourly rate was actually less than minimum wage. He moved on quickly. Strange as this sounds, that can actually happen If you are at or near entry level.

Yes, it's common.

Now, you're faced with several questions:

  1. Is this an occasional problem, or frequent?
  2. Does the company reward the "All hands on deck until we get this finished" times?
  3. Does the company compensate you in other ways (better benefits, a "hands off" attitude during slow times, comp time, et cetera)?
  4. Does throwing in and working late fast-track you for raises/promotions?

If you don't like the answers to those questions, then it's time to move on.

Old_Lamplighter
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    track the hours and do the math if it's a common occurrence +1 – Kilisi Aug 08 '16 at 22:07
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    I just looked it up and IDGAF means I Dont Give A Fuck – tmaj Aug 08 '16 at 22:40
  • @Kilisi almost all developers in UK are salaried grades and would have no fixed hours of work. – Pepone Aug 08 '16 at 23:02
  • @Pepone same here, engineers as well, but I once had a job that routinely had me working 6 or seven days and around 80-100 hours a week. Did the math and left. Once in a while long hours are OK, but there are limits to what someone on salary can reasonably be expected to do before they walk out the door. – Kilisi Aug 08 '16 at 23:06
  • I was under the impression (from the ones I've seen) that your salaried contract contains the number of hours you're expected to work. – shellco Aug 09 '16 at 00:39
  • @Sadurnias There are lovely little phrases in contracts that can nullify entire sections, such as "at management's discretion" – Old_Lamplighter Aug 09 '16 at 00:47
  • How is an "IDGAF attitude" a valid compensation for long hours? If you work an extra 5 hours on one week, you had better be allowed to go home an hour early every day of some other week. I think that is what you mean by comp time. – Brandin Aug 09 '16 at 06:58
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    @Brandin Here are some exaples from a boss I had: "unofficial" comp time. If we needed to leave early, no problem, no docking of pay. Long lunches, no problem. Flexible hours. Coming in late if we had a Dr's appointment, et cetera. In other words, Bust your butt during crunch time, and the rest of the time turning a blind eye to what would otherwise be considered abuses, or "off the books" compensation. – Old_Lamplighter Aug 09 '16 at 12:27
  • Use this time to get your skills rock solid and network as much as possible before leaving. A job should either 1. pay very well, 2. Lead you to better things in the future. I suspect you are dealing with #2. – Scott Simpson Aug 09 '16 at 16:29
  • The IDGAF attitude during slow times means the employer wouldn't give a damn if you're playing Angry Birds instead of working when there's not much work on. – i-CONICA Dec 12 '16 at 12:06
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    @i-CONICA it's more fun when he's playing with you – Old_Lamplighter Dec 12 '16 at 12:42
  • We've got a games console, supplied by the manager to put this point across, it's never been switched on though through our choice, but it's nice to know it's there. – i-CONICA Dec 12 '16 at 12:51
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tldr; Polish up your CV and get it out there.

In the UK, employers do not have to pay overtime, but the average pay for the hours worked must not fall below minimum wage.

You only HAVE to work overtime if compulsory overtime is stated in your contract. In any case, you are not allowed to work more than 48hours per week unless you have agreed in writing. The 48hours a week is calculated as an average over the previous 17 weeks. Reference: https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours

Do the math. If they aren't paying you overtime, you'd probably be making more money per hour flipping burgers. And you can be sure that the company salespeople negotiated a fat bonus for the company for shipping the product in three months rather than seven.

PeteCon
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    Because it's also responsible for many technological advances. That's not to say it's without it's flaws. I don't think this is the place for a discussion of economics. – Dan Aug 08 '16 at 15:34
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    It's worth mentioning that every software developer employment contract I have ever seen or heard of included the WTD waiver. Whether that is enforceable or not is another question. – OrangeDog Aug 08 '16 at 15:51
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    @OrangeDog The waiver should be entirely enforceable in the UK. The catch for employers isn't around enforceability, it's around the fact that they cannot take any negative action against someone for refusing to agree to the WTD waiver. As for capitalism...warfare leads to massive technological advances too; but that doesn't mean the ends justify the means. There can be less exploitative/harmful ways of attaining the same goal. – aroth Aug 08 '16 at 16:06
  • @OrangeDog WTD waiver? – Amani Kilumanga Aug 09 '16 at 00:42
  • @SteveJessop: "If you own the factory" Yes but not everybody owns the factory. Sadly I can't see my original comment any more (thanks, mods; very helpful) so can't add to this. – Lightness Races in Orbit Aug 09 '16 at 08:57
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    @AmaniKilumanga: WTD = Working Time Directive. A law that doesn't allow you to work more than 48 hours a week on average over a time of 13 weeks, unless you signed a WTD waiver. Strange enough, I've never seen one, never signed one, and there would be no way I'd ever sign one unless I got paid hourly :-) – gnasher729 Aug 09 '16 at 20:11
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Historically, this was common practice. In the decade or so of the Agile movement, we've seen improvements. The basis of current good practice is that a team should maintain a sustainable pace. Usually this means about 40 hours per week, and anything above that should be the exception rather than the rule.

These days, any good employer will be aware of the research that backs this thinking, and will therefore know that they will not profit by it. There are plenty of examples of workplaces where this has been turned around (it's win-win), but I daren't suggest that this is likely to happen where you are.

Dominic Cronin
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  • Yep, too many of those projects when management writes checks that the staff is made to cash leads to very high turnover, and some deliberate bugs buried in the code as well (not my ethics, but I've found mischief of others) – Old_Lamplighter Aug 08 '16 at 18:03
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    It's not just that. The more hours you work, the less efficient you get. You spend the mornings fixing the bugs from the previous evening, etc, etc. So in addition to not having a life, you aren't actually producing any more. – Dominic Cronin Aug 08 '16 at 19:43
  • I believe several studies have shown you actually produce less when working more than 40 hours regularly. Human beings are not efficient or effective workers when they are physically tired.Unfortunately, the legal ability to not pay overtime has led to managers who are not aware that what they are asking for is counterproductive or who don't care since they aren't paying for the extra hours anyway. If we removed the exception to overtime for professional work, the number of hours of overtime you would be expected to work would drop in a lot of professions, but especially in IT. – HLGEM Oct 28 '16 at 15:06
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Yes, it does seem to be a common practice (by culture, not enforced by management). My advice is to double check your contract and abide by it. No doubt it says something like "40 hours per week plus reasonable overtime", so do that. Reasonable overtime in the UK seems to be about 8 hours per week (thanks @Pete), although personally, overtime is only reasonable if it's very infrequent and required to hit an important deadline. If you're no longer happy with the terms of your contract, look for a new job.

Bottom line is that doing 7 months worth of work in 3 months is NOT reasonable overtime.

Maybe_Factor
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One thing to consider is your own experience level. If it takes you longer than a more experienced person to do a given job at the same pay grade, maybe you should put the time in and work on your skills so you can get work done faster.

To you it may seem like a 7 month job, but to someone more experienced it may be just right.

I've taken jobs where I didn't have half the required skills for the job, or was less experienced, and was honest during interviews, on the condition I'd make up for that by working long hours until I got the skills I needed and could finish work in a reasonable time frame.

Sometimes the experience is way more valuable than the overtime pay you'd make, if it takes you a lot longer to do things because you are fumbling around in the dark, but learning a ton of stuff, as opposed to getting stuck on poorly quoted projects.

Otherwise, yea, I'd be polishing up my CV and thinking about making a move. You really need to say to yourself "Is it worth it to stay here?"

Neil Davis
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    The difference in experience/speed of development should be expressed with different salaries. – tmaj Aug 08 '16 at 22:39