My manager has scheduled a face-to-face lunch meeting. Am I out of line to refuse?

Question

We're in the USA where the pandemic is still raging. We've been working from home since March. My department is 5 people and some of them have been seemingly having "cabin fever", so they asked my manager if they could meet for lunch. I thought this would be optional and that I could refuse, but it ended up becoming a lunch meeting where work would be discussed and so no longer optional. I told my boss that I wasn't comfortable joining and she is guilting me and saying I should go to help "build camaraderie".

Am I overreacting here by refusing to go to this meeting? I feel like no one should be meeting up in person right now unless necessary and a lunch meeting is not necessary for us. We've been doing web meetings for months.

Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. — Neo, Aug 04 '20 at 12:08
@emory: sounds like this lie could have unintended consequences. — Quora Feans, Aug 05 '20 at 22:09
What are the details of the lunch? Where I am, we meet at restaurants with terraces and greet at a safe distance. I only take the mask off immediately before eating, and put it afterwards. I feel safe in such situation. — Quora Feans, Aug 05 '20 at 22:13

score 103 · Accepted Answer · answered Aug 03 '20 at 13:34

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My manager has scheduled a face-to-face lunch meeting. Am I out of line to refuse?

You are not out of line to refuse given the current situation. If the purpose of the meeting is to discuss work, then you should at least make some effort to remotely attend. You can offer to call your manager or one of the participants and be placed on speaker phone during the meeting. This way, you can somewhat participate without physically being present. If even that is not possible due to the environment or some other reason, then ask to be updated on what was discussed or reach out to someone that attended to find out what was discussed. This way, you demonstrate that you were actually interested in the content.

answered Aug 03 '20 at 13:34

sf02

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Is OP an at-will employee? You should mention the very real risk of being fired for not going (directly or indirectly) – Jeffrey Aug 03 '20 at 17:03
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@Jeffrey Real but not necessarily likely. It really depends on just how unreasonable OP's manager is, though I admit insisting on a mandatory in-person lunch meeting during a pandemic isn't a point in her favor. – BSMP Aug 03 '20 at 18:38
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@Jeffrey: You're not wrong but that risk exists for literally anything (barring things that are specifically protected by law) when you're employed at will, making it fairly irrelevant to point it out at every turn. – Flater Aug 04 '20 at 13:32
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@Flater I disagree that a response to a question "what are the possible negative outcomes of taking this action" fits the description of 'point it out at every turn'. – Alex M Aug 04 '20 at 17:33
@BSMP "Let's have an in-person gathering while there's a deadly epidemic going on because we're feeling stir-crazy" does not strike me as a very reasonable attitude to begin with... – Shadur-don't-feed-the-AI Aug 04 '20 at 20:00
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Go to the lunch. Wear a mask, and ensure you are all socially distanced. Do you panic about going to the grocery store or gas station? Use the same precautions and you'll be fine. – SnakeDoc Aug 04 '20 at 23:15
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@SnakeDoc that's incredibly poor advice. Engaging in a risky activity bears more risk than not doing so, regardless of the precautions one takes. Going grocery shopping is, for the vast majority of people, a necessity to continue being alive. Going to a lunch meeting with no good reason for physical presence is not. – Adam Barnes Aug 05 '20 at 05:28
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@SnakeDoc Also at a lunch you'll presumably need to remove the mask at some point to eat. You can't use the same precautions. – Lio Elbammalf Aug 05 '20 at 08:18
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@LioElbammalf you participate to the meeting not the launch. The fact that other are eating should not be an issue for you. That said unfortunately mask protect other and less efficiently yourself, so wearing a mask is not a good solution, just better than nothing – Lesto Aug 05 '20 at 11:10
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@SnakeDoc Wearing a mask protects others, not you. – Thorbjørn Ravn Andersen Aug 05 '20 at 22:16
@ThorbjørnRavnAndersen Exactly. Everyone should wear a mask at the meeting, right? The point was, you can do a in-person meeting safely. Refusing to make the accommodations necessary to have a safe meeting is, riduculous, particularly when the statistics prove it would be of benine risk (more likely to die in a car crash on your way to the meeting, for instance, but nobody refuses meetings over that). – SnakeDoc Aug 05 '20 at 22:56

mhoran_psprep · Answer 2 · 2020-08-04T10:11:01.363

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You have to look at the environment where the lunch meeting is taking place. It is possible to meet for lunch and still separate by 6 feet. This is done all the time by people who want to visit relatives. A small group eating outside can set their chairs 10 feet apart and be fine.

My parents have an evening meeting with their neighbors on their cul-de-sac. They stand by their mailboxes and talk. They bring an adult beverage and discuss whatever they want. No masks are required, but they can be worn if that makes the person comfortable.

My community brought in a food truck, then allowed families to sit in marked off zones on the old tennis court.

Give the manager options. Everybody can bring a picnic lunch or they can get it catered. They key is to be outside.

If the safety issue can't/won't be resolved then you have to realize that no team building even is 100% required.

A few comments regarding items brought up in the comments:

It is a business meeting. In name only. In order for the company to approve it, your manager needs to bring up a business topic. Based on my many years of experience the business topic will be 2 minutes and the rest of the time it will be socialization.

I had decided to avoid any of the normal issues that are included in these questions and focus just on the COVID problems, but here are the ones that aren't COVID related:

Time. If the cost in time to get there, eat, socialize, and get back home is not being covered by the company this is a burden on the employee. I know people who have to travel 50+ miles to work. or they have to take the commuter train which doesn't allow for arriving in the office for lunch. That 30 minute lunch will cost them multiple hours, which they have to make up or take vacation.
Money. If the company isn't footing the bill for the food, that can make it to expensive for employees.
Conflicts. Some days I have meetings that I have to attend. In the past they were in person, now they are over the phone, but sometimes I am not able to reschedule a meeting where I am 1 of 50 attending. The longer the business lunch the more likely there is a conflict.
Food choices/allergies. I am allergic to seafood. If the company lunch is sushi, I have zero interest in attending.

edited Aug 04 '20 at 10:11

answered Aug 03 '20 at 13:52

mhoran_psprep

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better make it two meters. Two meters is safer than six feet. – Old_Lamplighter Aug 03 '20 at 14:14
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The difference between your parents and the OP is (possibly) that the OP has (presumably) to travel to the work/lunch location, the parent at the mailboxes not. – guest Aug 03 '20 at 14:23
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But travel concerns aren't expressed in the question. – mhoran_psprep Aug 03 '20 at 14:29
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I would assume "meet in person" includes travelling unless said otherwise (as you did in your example). – guest Aug 03 '20 at 14:38
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Another issue here is that everyone has their own comfort level with these situations. Some may be comfortable sitting 6' apart outside without masks (since masks need to be removed to eat), while others may not be. And that comfort level may vary depending on age, health conditions, the level of viral spread in the local community, the number of participants at the gathering, how seriously the other participants are trying to protect themselves, transportation options, etc... The OP may make those judgement calls differently than you or your parents, and that's their right. – Zach Lipton Aug 03 '20 at 23:45
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It also seems like it would be difficult to conduct a business discussion with 5 people all sitting 6 feet apart. – Barmar Aug 04 '20 at 00:31
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Most lunch meetings are not going to be in a place where you can maintain separation--and remember 6' is without airflow effects. If the HVAC is blowing and you're downwind it's not enough. – Loren Pechtel Aug 04 '20 at 03:42
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From their personal safety, the OP needs to check the environment. But as a legal duty of care to her employees, the manager *must* check the environment. She could be putting her people in the same risk as if she decided to have this lunch meeting in the middle of an active construction site, under moving cranes, without hard hats. The same laws for ensuring safety on a construction site apply equally to safety from this pandemic. And as with the building site example, you're breaking the law by making the environment unsafe even if no one gets hurt. – Graham Aug 04 '20 at 08:15
You haven't addressed the workplace question here. – user3067860 Aug 04 '20 at 13:33
@LorenPechtel I’d be very surprised if the air conditioner did anything but improve the situation. Any breeze is pretty beneficial, no matter the direction. – Tim Aug 04 '20 at 17:32
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@Tim there are a number of studies implicating A/C and other HVAC infrastructure with increased transmission. – Reid Aug 04 '20 at 19:31
@Reid and there are other studies showing that any air movement is helpful at removing the <5 micron droplets from the vicinity rapidly. Outdoors is better, of course, but I gather that circulating the air is better than still air. – Tim Aug 04 '20 at 20:21
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@Tim Overall, yes, moving air is better. However, that doesn't change the fact that moving air distorts the distribution range. The total hazard is less but the shape is different. – Loren Pechtel Aug 04 '20 at 23:12
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I do want to point out that the "6 feet" recommendation was completely made up by US authorities. I'm still frankly a bit surprised that nobody seems to ask where it came from. – Chan-Ho Suh Aug 05 '20 at 02:55
@Tim these droplets leave the vicinity by magically going around people? Or does the air movement conceivably push some droplets into people's air passages? – Chan-Ho Suh Aug 05 '20 at 02:56
Time: if there weren't a pandemic, workers would have to commute anyway. 2. Money: valid concern 3. Conflicts: That's just how work is. Sometimes you have to say "I have a meeting now and I won't be available." I don't see how a lunch meeting is different from another meeting in this regard. 4. Most restaurants have desert or something else that's not the main theme of the restaurant. If not, make arrangements to bring something.

Acccumulation

Aug 05 '20 at 04:29

@Chan-HoSuh it disperses the droplets throughout the entire room, rather than leaving them in a cloud, which dramatically reduces the concentration. – Tim Aug 05 '20 at 06:37

If I start my day working at one location and have to show up for a mandatory meeting 50 miles away, that travel time is chargeable. It doesn't matter whether that location is a company office or my home office if it's where I was expected to work from that day. Only the commute to the start location and from the end location for the day are unpaid (hint: if traveling far, make sure to close up the day's tasks and charge your time at your start location). This all follows the guidelines of several large corporations and government oversight departments I've been involved with. – Bloodgain Aug 05 '20 at 18:37

@Chan-HoSuh I believe it comes from a 1940s study. It is indeed funny how often it is repeated without any critical thought. In reality it's so much more complicated than "more than 6 feet is fine" – eps Aug 05 '20 at 20:57

Harper - Reinstate Monica · Answer 3 · 2020-08-05T22:44:42.393

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Check your state, county and city executive orders and other mandates.

It's something you should be familiar with anyway... but there's a fair chance a government order at one of those levels will prohibit the meeting.

You are looking in 2 areas: General, and Employment.

Obviously most of us think about the rules on social gatherings, and any such rules do apply. In most states, 5 friends getting together is legal, at least outdoors with social distancing.

But this is an employer function as part of a job - and that brings in another chapter of regulations. A few examples of such regs:

In-person meetings prohibited if remote meetings are possible link (1) link 16VAC25-220-60(C)(1)(h) (2)
Mandatory COVID screening on arrival at workplace (how's that handled? And yeah, the restaurant is the workplace if business is conducted). 1(f)
Masks required indoors in an employment setting (3) 1(j)
Distancing required in an employment setting 1(g) link 16VAC25-220-60(C)(1)(e)

Obviously those last two conflict with a sit-down meeting in a restaurant. But what do you do with that??? What's the regulation issuer going to say about that? Since my advice is "check with your state, county and city", that's a good thing to ask them.

But I don't see too many saying "sure, hold an unnecessary meeting and suspend precautions". I think most will say "No, the rules preclude lunch meetings". Again you must ask.

Further, "doing it anyway" can be as serious as a misdemeanor; and while early on, the governors were making the rules fairly toothless, of late they are cranking up the penalties.

You also have civil liability (lawsuit) if you pass on COVID to another person. Even if a governor waives criminal penalties, that does nothing to ease the risk of a lawsuit if someone contact-traces their infection back to such a meeting. The liability is both corporate and individual, especially if the individual apparently lied on a COVID screening form.

edited Aug 05 '20 at 22:44

answered Aug 04 '20 at 06:13

Harper - Reinstate Monica

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In the US right now, this seems exceedingly unlikely. There aren't a lot of places that have banned gatherings as small as 5, most municipalities do not have any mask ordinance operating, and obviously in this particular locale restaurants are not closed (or this wouldn't have come up in the first place). There's a reason the US currently has nearly a quarter of the world's active cases. – T.E.D. Aug 05 '20 at 13:48
@T.E.D. The media is covering the War of the Governors, not the county level orders which most affect business. It's common to have bans on corporate face to face activity that could be handled electronically. Expect an order about qualifications to enter a workplace, e.g. the 8 questions you get asked and taking your temperature. To meet without doing that is a violation. The US has very good government in places; but that isn't helping much. It's suffering because of Karen & Ken. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Aug 05 '20 at 14:55
Where? This is literally the first I've heard of such a thing in the US. – T.E.D. Aug 05 '20 at 15:22
In my state, we're lucky to have gotten a mask ordinance (most cities don't have one, including the suburb my workplace is in). Trying to regulate the behavior of local private businesses within their own walls that aren't "public accommodation" is pretty much unthinkable. For the most part, the burden of deciding to use social distancing to reduce spread has been left on the shoulders of individual citizens, which seems exactly where this question is coming from. – T.E.D. Aug 05 '20 at 15:32
Well it's not a thing random consumers are obliged to track. But corporations, yes - so it absolutely governs a company meeting! If you're curious, check with your county executive and/or county health department. Also hit your state or governor's website and look at all the laws, regs or executive orders that have been coming down. There'll be dozens if not hundreds. Companies need to know that stuff. Like my state has one on weedspray license renewal. My county has one on reopening buildings with low/no water use. They're needed. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Aug 05 '20 at 17:07
I'm quite aware of my state and local laws related to the pandemic, such (little as they are). Been keeping very on top of that. I'm curious where exactly is doing as you say? Can you provide an example? Because this answer (likely incorrectly?) implies it is widespread, and I know it certainly isn't here. – T.E.D. Aug 05 '20 at 18:07
@T.E.D. Just picking random states here at random and going covid emergency orders... Tennessee has 55, Virginia has 69, Vermont paginates with 7 pages... Nevada has 29, Michigan has 163, Wisconsin has 83, just for a very quick drive-by... every state governs differntly and some don't do the COVID rulemaking through EOs. California, holy crap, is all I'll say. It's a paean to Joseph de Maistre. Where I am the governor has been prolific, and so has the county. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Aug 05 '20 at 19:01
That's a lot. But I picked Nevada's (since it only has 29) and read through them all. There's absolutely nothing in there that would prohibit the activity outlined in this question (assuming the establishment in question is actually open for business, of course). Rather than wasting the my whole day reading chaff, I think its fair to assume the rest are also of that ilk, until pointed to a specific example that shows otherwise. Also now downvoting the answer (something I almost never do), as its now become clear it was based unsupported reasoning. Willing to undo if I'm missing something. – T.E.D. Aug 05 '20 at 19:35
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There are counties that have banned outside dining (which means of course indoor is also banned) but if that's the case the question is irrelevant in the first place. There are also group size restrictions but again if that's the case the meeting isn't happening anyway. I'm not aware of any US county or city that has allowed outdoor dining but put restrictions on group composition (eg everyone has to be from same house). – eps Aug 05 '20 at 21:05
@T.E.D. I wasn't trying to snow you, just wasn't clear where you were going; I thought we were chatting generally, didn't realize you were demanding cites with a mind to DV. Yes, you're unfair taking a sample size of one (especially when you aim for the smallest one). You don't need to read the chaff; here's what I found in the longest one (Mich.) in 30 seconds. EO 160, scroll down past the chaff to point 1, there ya go. If a meeting can happen remotely, it must. Keep in mind I'm not even prognosticating that OP's state prohibits this, I'm just saying you need to check. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Aug 05 '20 at 21:33
@eps you're right that social restrictions (e.g. friends dining together) bear force. But this is a workplace issue. So workplace restrictions also bear force: such as "if you can meet remotely you must", or indoor mask rules, or distancing rules. Those aren't waived just because lunch is involved. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Aug 05 '20 at 21:42
@T.E.D. I notice I've been talking/thinking about workplace restrictions (including a business function offsite), and you've not. I've edited my answer to point out that a whole body of workplace rules apply, not just the friends/social rules. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Aug 05 '20 at 21:57
@eps I realize now that I do not sufficiently cover the point that the workplace rules are the crux of the issue, not the social rules. I've edited to cover that. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Aug 05 '20 at 21:58
I've added links to four large locale's codes. I'll admit I leaned toward more urban states because their websites are better organized, but "Do not hold in-person meetings if remote meetings are feasible" was in all of them. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Aug 05 '20 at 22:31

score 8 · Answer 4 · answered Aug 03 '20 at 14:14

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I would say address it thusly.

Analyze your own risk factors
Analyze the risk factors of those you come into close personal contact with
Analyze the overall safety of the meeting
Discuss any concerns with your boss
Go, or don't

Having nearly been killed on the job, and having permanent injuries from said job, I can say that no job is worth your life or health.

If you think this is too much of a risk, and that your boss is too cavalier with your health concerns, then you don't belong at that job, and you should seek another.

If the proper precautions are in place, and your risks are low, you should go.

If you cannot go, ask if you can attend remotely. We've done similar things with people, and it's worked out well. But be safe, sane and cognizant of your risks.

answered Aug 03 '20 at 14:14

Old_Lamplighter

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It's more like the boss doesn't belong--it is not acceptable for the employer to make a job riskier than need be even if it's an inherently hazardous job. – Loren Pechtel Aug 04 '20 at 03:43
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The thing is, the risk on an individual instance is always going to be minimal. I live in one of the hardest-hit regions in the world, and in my zip "only" about 0.15% of the population is (known to be) infected. The odds of one of those other 4 people in this one meeting being in that infected group are really low, and even if they are I may not catch it. However, if you continue to take these risks all the time, or more to the point if everyone takes them, more than enough people will get infected to make the problem worse. The consideration here isn't just yourself. – T.E.D. Aug 05 '20 at 13:57
@T.E.D. It's not about taking the risks all the time, it's one instance, and eventually, we will all be infected, probably more of us have been than we realize. I think I had it back in January. You cannot hide from a virus. – Old_Lamplighter Aug 05 '20 at 14:18
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@Old_Lamplighter - Protip: If you think you might have had it and recovered (not if you're sick or recently exposed!!!), donate blood. The American Red Cross is now checking donations for Covid-19 antibodies. Having them makes your blood more useful (so there's a practical reason), but it would also tell you if you've "already had it". – T.E.D. Aug 05 '20 at 14:44
@T.E.D. I cannot donate blood for other health reasons – Old_Lamplighter Aug 05 '20 at 14:46

score 2 · Answer 5 · answered Aug 03 '20 at 13:35

Am I overreacting here by refusing to go to this meeting?

We cannot answer that as what would be be overacting will vary from one person to another, and also ongoing regulation about such events. For example there may be relatively safe ways to do said lunch, like at a park, maintaining safe distance, with bring your own food options and so on (this is just an example not actual advice to do that, weight your own circumstances and solutions).

But whether you are overreacting or not....

I told my boss that I wasn't comfortable joining and she is guilting me and saying I should go to help "build camaraderie".

The reality of the situation is that not going to a lunch where everyone else will go, is likely to harm your relationship. How badly, for how long, we cannot tell, but whenever you refuse to do something that is important for someone else, you are at risk of alienating that person. So you have to weight that consequence against possible benefit that goes from attending and make your own decision. Or maybe you can propose some middle ground, like offering to attend over the phone, or to do it in a way that is safe for everyone.

requires a stronger answer up front, it's more of a discussiom than an answer — bharal, Aug 03 '20 at 19:25

HenryM · Answer 6 · 2020-08-03T17:12:07.427

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Unusual mandatory meetings tend to be about:

Immediate layoffs.
Company re-structuring that will result in layoffs soon.

The first type wouldn't be done at a restaurant. It needs to be at the office. The second type could be done in a restaurant. If this meeting is at the office it's even more likely to be about layoffs because offices have video & audio conferencing making a mandatory in person "lunch" meeting very, very unusual.

Yes, you can opt out on health grounds but most states allow employers to terminate you for any reason unless you have a contract that says otherwise. Look at it this way, if your close family member wanted to see you right now, would you let them? If the answer is, 'yes', then going to meet co-workers is no more risky. You can't know for sure where another person has been and what bugs they're carrying. To minimize risk, try to meet outside.

edited Aug 03 '20 at 17:12

answered Aug 03 '20 at 14:43

HenryM

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Given OP's details, it seems unlikely it's either of these things - it's just manager trying to accommodate the wishes of those with cabin fever and figuring to get some work stuff thrown in. – Joe Aug 03 '20 at 22:50
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@joe Note that 'discussing work business' may be required to allow the meal to be charged to the company... – avid Aug 04 '20 at 04:29
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But you're not seeing a random person. You're seeing a person with poor COVID compliance. They are more likely to be superspreaders. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Aug 04 '20 at 06:06
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Plus most people have a far stronger relationship with family members than with coworkers, and so are willing to take greater risks for their family members. So it's a very different calculus. – bob Aug 04 '20 at 12:58
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@Harper-ReinstateMonica How can you know for sure whether another person has 'poor COVID' compliance or not? That's my point. – HenryM Aug 04 '20 at 15:07
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@HenryM - the fact that they want to gather a bunch of people during an epidemic, in a closed space, to perform an activity that necessitates removal of masks directly shows poor compliance. – Davor Aug 04 '20 at 15:44
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@HenryM Social animals have an animal urge to be connected. People want facetime because they feel like they're losing social status. Beating the virus requires intellect and discipline to rise above animal instincts. Whoever's pushing for this face-to-face is weak. Weak people do it in every aspect of their lives. Science is showing the vast majority of infections are coming from a tiny number of people, those are called superspreaders. The weak person insisting on face-to-face is how they operate. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Aug 04 '20 at 16:38
@Harper-ReinstateMonica Interesting point. – HenryM Aug 04 '20 at 18:00

My manager has scheduled a face-to-face lunch meeting. Am I out of line to refuse?

6 Answers6

Check your state, county and city executive orders and other mandates.

You are looking in 2 areas: General, and Employment.