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Recently I approached my manager to approve my 4 days leave (Paid Time Off). He said "Let's make it 3 days and take sick leave on the 4th day". He does this every time I apply for more than 2 days leave. His justification is that since Paid Time off (PTO) can be carried forward to next calendar year, why waste it when other types of leave are available.

We also have a payout policy for PTO's, so he makes his justification look more legitimate by quoting this also. (I am not sure about payout of sick leave. I'll update once I check my policies tomorrow.).

While I don't see any disadvantage for me to apply the leaves as he suggested, it is beyond my understanding what's in it for him?

smci
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chrono_tachy
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    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Neo Sep 17 '19 at 11:19
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    Do you have any maximum sick policies (days or periods of absences). Consider what would happen if you were genuinely sick - would you exceed these? – Smock Sep 17 '19 at 13:18
  • @Smock He'll take PTO... – ventsyv Sep 17 '19 at 13:28
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    Have you asked your manager directly why he suggests this leave time allocation? Surely there's a reason, and if you have a good relationship with him, he should be able to answer the question for you. – Milwrdfan Sep 17 '19 at 13:34
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    Some companies (mine for example) are very flexible about sick days, allowing you to take unused ones off for any reason. If that's the case there is no problem with what he is doing. He's trying to help you maximize your time off. – DJClayworth Sep 17 '19 at 13:52
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    Be careful navigating this. If all your coworkers are doing this, and you check with HR and they quash it, you don't want word getting around that you were responsible for taking away everyone's free vacation days. – Biff MaGriff Sep 17 '19 at 14:14
  • Happier employees stay longer and... are happier. [He make also have bad intentions, but we can only speculate about that, and whether this is a good idea, or how to deal with it, is another question altogether] – Bernhard Barker Sep 17 '19 at 14:40
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    Do you have sick leave or sick/personal leave? In other words, is taking sick days at your company when you're not sick actually dishonest/unethical (as some of the answers have assumed)? – mattliu Sep 17 '19 at 14:52
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    @ventsyv It could be that taking PTO requires a certain notice period, whereas sick days can be called in whenever (it's difficult to know two weeks in advance when you'll be sick.) By gradually using up sick days like this, the manager gives himself leverage to prevent people suddenly calling in sick (whether they really are or not,) thereby "keeping people at work." This is, of course, assuming certain things about company policy, as well as a more toxic motivation on the manager's part, which may not in fact be true. – Steve-O Sep 17 '19 at 15:18
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    Which state/country are you in? – THiebert Sep 17 '19 at 16:58
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    Is it bad that when I read "manipulates my leaves", I automatically think it's referring to some kind of agile/scrum buzzword rather than 'leave'? – Ingolifs Sep 18 '19 at 01:32
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    If this is a country where the wages for sick leave are partially refunded to the employer, this might be problematic. In which country are you? – bukwyrm Sep 18 '19 at 09:11
  • @DJClayworth But, correspondingly, if have a quota of sick days and start using them as holiday, you have a problem if you get sick. – David Richerby Sep 19 '19 at 18:26
  • Many employment contracts have a clause that demands a note from your doctor on the second or third sick day, but always if the sick day is between a holiday and the weekend. – Karl Sep 19 '19 at 21:05
  • @DavidRicherby how could you have a quota of sick days? It would be totally absurd, because you can't plan your sick days :O – Danubian Sailor Sep 19 '19 at 21:40
  • @DanubianSailor DJClayworth refers to using "unused sick days" as holiday. The only way I can make sense of the phrase "unused sick days" is when there's an allowed number of them. Sure, that sounds like a crazy idea to me, too, but what else could it mean? – David Richerby Sep 19 '19 at 22:16

9 Answers9

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While I don't see any disadvantage for me to apply the leaves as suggested by him

You are taking sick days when you are not actually sick. Maybe this is OK with and encouraged by your manager but what are the consequences of HR finding out? You need to read your employee handbook and find out if sick days at your company can only be used if you are actually sick or if they are more like personal days where it is any sudden unexpected excused absence. Your boss may be trying to help you out but this could backfire so I would make sure to fully understand your company's policies on PTO.

sf02
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    Even if it's "any sudden unexpected absence", OP would still be violating that policy, since this absence is known in advance. And a pattern of taking sick days next to rec leave is going to look very suspicious if HR decide to check up. – GB supports the mod strike Sep 16 '19 at 23:12
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    This might be dependent on location, as well, depending on whether or not “mental health days” are legally recognised as a valid use for sick days. – nick012000 Sep 17 '19 at 00:59
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    @nick012000 taking a "mental health day" after each planned vacation would look really bad if I was the HR worker looking into this employee's history. I would not recommend using that term as a reason in this case. – Gertsen Sep 17 '19 at 07:40
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    @Geoffrey - it will look even more suspicious if everyone in that team does the same but that's a big indicator that the boss is responsible for the behaviour. I'd really want to check that he is encouraging the rest of the team to take sick days, and not just setting me up for a fall. – Robin Bennett Sep 17 '19 at 07:42
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    Even more cynical possibility: He attempts to create something that he can MAKE backfire on people at will. – rackandboneman Sep 17 '19 at 20:31
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    It would look like alcoholism or some other substance abuse. He's not in shape for work the day after his vacation. – JollyJoker Sep 18 '19 at 07:46
  • Also to add to this answer, in many companies, the Nuremberg defense will not work as it is also the employee's responsibility to blow the whistle in case of procedure / code of conduct violations. Make sure you know the policy through your own means and not through your manager. – Juliana Karasawa Souza Sep 18 '19 at 09:17
  • I assume the OP needs his PTO to attend some personal business or maybe just to relax with his family. I wish the OP all the best, of course, but what if the day of the (fake) sick leave he is involved in a car accident with friends/family in the same car and then they need to go to the hospital? In the (very likely) case of the HR department finding this out, how is the OP going to justify? To me, this is a very logcal reason to be fired that very moment. I know, chances of being involved in a car accident may be low, but is it worth the risk? – SCdev Sep 18 '19 at 16:31
  • "Read your employee handbook" should be the real highlight for all of this. It varies greatly by company. Some companies explicitly prohibit combining sick days and vacation days, or require a doctor's note to justify doing so. Some companies really just seem to have them as "non-roll-over PTO days", use em or lose em, no restrictions, so in this case the boss may have a good point. But the employee handbook should be read and followed to keep the employee out of any future trouble. – JamieB Nov 18 '22 at 21:18
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This is a type of unethical conduct or workplace dishonesty which happens in hierarchical environments where there is little accountability of the greater good and huge accountability from your imminent relations. What it could be about:

  • As pointed by many: boss looking after his workers. He cares about the loyalty of his workers. Loyalty allows him to squeeze extra hours, possibly non-compensated, of his workers when needed even if the work policy does not allow demanding this or there is concerning regulation prohibiting this. Not necessarily bad for the greater good but indeed it is bending the rules and abusing human psychology of paying favours back.
  • It can be that the managers are rewarded by surveys. So he needs you to like him because people are not objective and value shady tips/approval for abusing the system. He is trying to be your guy. to get the good ratings.
  • Some kind of workday accounting may make it seem like he is achieving more with less which could affect his bonuses.
Mindwin Remember Monica
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user3644640
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    @JoeStrazzere it may be a small fraud, but it's undeniably fraud, at the company's expense. – hobbs Sep 17 '19 at 01:43
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    "Moral hazard" is not a random coinage, it is a term from economics with a highly specific meaning, discussed in connection with market failure due to asymmetric information. It does not typically include fraud, although it does include the agent acting in ways that harm the principal. I personally would not see this situation as a typical moral hazard problem, and don't immediately see any benefit of analysing it from that angle. – rumtscho Sep 17 '19 at 05:42
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    On the other hand, the manager may want to be accumulating documented evidence that you "always take some extra time off sick at the end of your holidays" - and the obvious reason for doing that is not going to benefit you when it is the reason you are fired. – alephzero Sep 17 '19 at 12:07
  • what @rumtscho said. Here's an investopedia link – Mindwin Remember Monica Sep 17 '19 at 12:14
  • I'm editting the A. The comment regarding the misuse of the term has more upvotes than the A at the time of this comment – Mindwin Remember Monica Sep 17 '19 at 12:18
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    Maybe there is no financial gain for the manager for doing it. Maybe he seems there is no harm in the rule bending of sick days, and simply do it because he would like his boss to do the same for him. His gains may be of the personal satisfaction sort. – lvella Sep 17 '19 at 12:26
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    It's not a given that taking off sick days when you are not sick is unethical. My current company allows it, and most managers here encourage you to take sick days before you use vacation days. – DJClayworth Sep 17 '19 at 13:54
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    Your first bullet point seems to venture really far down the road of assumptions. Couldn't it just be the boss caring about his workers and their loyalty, without expecting to squeeze any extra time or work out of them; perhaps instead hoping that the morale will improve production. – JMac Sep 17 '19 at 14:36
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    It seems really weird that any companies still think taking a "Mental health day" as sick leave could be an ethical issue. Leave should be leave--if you don't want people to take it, don't give it to them. If you give it to them, let them use it as they wish. The exception is obviously long term sickness for exceptional circumstances, but that's more like medical insurance--very different than sick days you accrue/earn. – Bill K Sep 17 '19 at 18:14
  • @JMac True, but I try to give a "hard" answer. The moral is hard to grasp as it is as vague as good vibes. I used loyalty as it is kind of manifestation of the moral with a more concrete objective of wanting to do well for the boss and colleagues. There is no end if we go to the "soft" realm of people wanting to be liked and the nuances of bosses balancing between needing to get things done and their human-like behaviour beyond the managerial functions. That could a bullet point of itself. – user3644640 Sep 17 '19 at 20:05
  • Downvoted!! There is definitely nothing unethical about this at all. Everybody is allowed a sick day once per whatever it is your company allows. Even if you are not sick you can mark it up as a mental reestablishment day. If you don't believe me, check with HR. If HR doesn't agree they didn't receive the proper training. – Octopus Sep 17 '19 at 20:44
  • @BillK Mental health day is not a universal thing. Also, I think it is about timing. If you use mental health as an excuse to have fun, possibly even doing mentally harming things, instead of actually tending for your mental health, it is unethical. Mental health issues or lack of are harder to prove and it is almost impossible to be held accountable for the misuse of a mental health day. Personally, I see a given number of sick days as a perversion of contract negotiations that make sense only in the jobs where there is an issue that people do not want to work at all like many low income jobs – user3644640 Sep 18 '19 at 08:32
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    @Octopus I know it feels bad to be pointed out as the evil guy that exploits the benefits meant for the people that need them. No need to feel offended if your actions are deemed unethical in a somewhat anonymous internet board. – user3644640 Sep 18 '19 at 08:38
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    @Octopus OP's very clear that his intention is to take vacations and their manager is telling them to book it as sick days (which they clearly are not). Telling you're sick when you're clearly not only is unethical in many cultures, it is labeled as fraud in many countries and can result in a for-cause termination. – Juliana Karasawa Souza Sep 18 '19 at 09:14
  • I mean I don’t think we can say “which they clearly are not” without seeing the given company’s policies around it. Though it is called a “sick” leave, I have worked for one place whose employee handbook specified that you could take your sick days “at your own discretion,” so the policy was that your manager and company just trusted you to make your own calls about how to use this time and did not ask questions. I don’t know to what extent that is typical but I also don’t think US law can classify Octopus's behavior as fraud if that is the underlying policy. – CR Drost Sep 18 '19 at 15:28
  • @JulianaKarasawaSouza Assuming the sick days are only meant for actually being sick. I've seen many policies when looking for a job, and it's pretty common for "sick days" to just mean free days you can pick at your own discretion. You were also allowed to use them for things like dealing with the plumber, or just not feeling like working that one day. But that's something the OP can easily check - just see the sick day policies - are they only intended for actually being sick or not? – Luaan Sep 19 '19 at 08:19
  • Did you notice that you're dismissing the red flags, right? While I do agree that we don't know the PTO policy of OP's company, neither does OP. It is clear that the manager is trying to game the system for whatever reason and it can backfire spetacularly on either of them since it is up to interpretation. As pointed out by sf02's answer below. – Juliana Karasawa Souza Sep 19 '19 at 08:26
  • It can also be that the manger is going after you ... the number of sick days you take is something that HR will often include in a reference. – UKMonkey Sep 19 '19 at 17:30
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It is not completely unusual for employees to view sick days as a commodity that are there to be "used up". This is an incorrect view of the world but just about common enough that it is likely your boss genuinely believes that you deserve the sick days as holiday.

However...

It would be very unusual for this to be an actual company policy and as such you may be taking a significant risk by "spending" your sick days in such a manner. Amongst other things you are running the risk of actually getting sick and then not having any days left in your budget.

What is in it for your boss?

One possibility is that your boss wants you to break the rules because it will make it easier for him to break the rules also. This could be a benign or, if you are unlucky, it could be sinister.

P. Hopkinson
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    or he wants to have something to use against the employee in the future if he wants to get rid of him. Fraud with sick days is a good way to get fired on the spot... – jwenting Sep 17 '19 at 07:51
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    @jwenting most likely he just wants his team to cover up for his own dishonest behavior as "every does it anyway". – Mindwin Remember Monica Sep 17 '19 at 12:20
  • I hope PTO is being requested through email. – paulj Sep 17 '19 at 19:05
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    Probably very regional. In some countries, sick leave intertwines with the healthcare system, and is not considered just a matter of employee and employer – rackandboneman Sep 17 '19 at 20:35
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    @rackandboneman Careful there - "sick day" and "sick leave" are two very different things. Sick days are only between the employee and the employer, and is intended for short unexpected periods of leave (usually "I don't feel well today, so I'm going to get a bit of rest and come back to work tomorrow"). Sick leave usually involves health insurance and/or the government, and is intended for more serious issues, spanning multiple days or even longer. Sick days are a benefit paid for by the employer. – Luaan Sep 19 '19 at 08:24
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    @Luaan Where would that apply? I don't think you can assume this distinction or terminology to be universal. I can also name a country where the first few days of pay during sick leave are paid by the employer but still heavily regulated and must be reported to the government and another country where the employer is on the hook for up to 2 years of sick leave. – Relaxed Sep 19 '19 at 22:42
  • @Relaxed But that's still a sick leave, not a sick day. In my country, the first few days of sick leave, you get nothing. Sick days are completely outside of the system - that's the whole point of having sick days in the first place. – Luaan Sep 20 '19 at 05:24
  • @Luaan As I said, you cannot assume the terminology is universal. Most people would use these terms interchangeably. If I follow your definitions then the countries I have in mind have no concept of “sick days”. If you do not show up at work even for one day, it's either a sick leave (which you must justify) or unsanctioned absence that is not paid at all and can expose yourself to disciplinary action. Best case your employer can let you use some paid or unpaid leave/vacation day after the fact to cover it. – Relaxed Sep 20 '19 at 05:49
  • Also, you seldom know for a fact whether your condition will develop into a longish sickness, you're typically expected (both by your employer and national insurance systems) to report any leave for sickness or medical reason to start the clock on the statutory sick leave. – Relaxed Sep 20 '19 at 05:52
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Just because this has not been mentioned yet, Assuming your company is larger, I have seen organisations where the budget for paid vacation comes directly from your team / manager's budget, but sickness comes from a central company medical expense budget.

It could be that your manager is trying to manipulate such a system to have a little more money for the department at the cost of the company's budget as a whole.

While it is probably harmless if used a few times I would not be surprised if you use it too much there may start to be questions centrally about if you have some kind of medical problem or are gaming the system. Unless you have what he said in writing do not expect to be able to blame him in case of any investigation, it would likely fall squarely on you.

Vality
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    This was my first thought too. I've worked at a university where nobody really cared about how or if I report vacation days (because the only thing that matters is that x % of my salary comes from the project where I report x % of my working hours) – but my boss told me to always report sick days when I'm sick, because we can save project funding that way. – JiK Sep 19 '19 at 11:33
  • The company could never prove later that you werent sick on that single day. If your manager routinely signs applications for four free days in a week, and makes no inquiries if workers dont turn up on the fifth, its his neck in the sling. – Karl Sep 19 '19 at 20:59
  • @Karl While I get your point, I happen to know my former employer as well as several other screen for employees who take significantly more sick days on Monday, Friday or the day before or after a vacation and begin investigating with HR. – Vality Sep 19 '19 at 21:01
  • Im sure, but the guilt still accumulates on their manager. ;) Of course Im judging from German work regulations, where such a case against a single employee would usually be as cold as a frozen duck. – Karl Sep 19 '19 at 21:21
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While I don't see any disadvantage for me to apply the leaves as suggested by him, it is beyond my understanding whats in it for him?

There should be nothing for him personally here. He seems to be trying to build goodwill with the employee (you) by getting more monetary benefits available to you (by having PTO's cashed / carried over) by working the system.

However, if you work in a company with strict policies, such an action coming to notice of HR could lead to him getting a warning for such behavior. (As he sets the wrong example). Today he is bending one rule for subordinates, what if they start breaking other rules themselves by subjectively deciding what can be acceptable?

Anshul Goyal
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    "if you work in a company with strict policies" - worth also noting that every company can become a "company with strict policies" overnight and without warning. –  Sep 17 '19 at 12:53
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Your boss is messing with your professional reputation

I don't know if that is their intention, but it is certainly the end result. Taking sick leave straight after a planned holiday generally carries a negative connotation - it is not a good look. Your boss might think they're doing you a favour, but it could give other people in the company the impression that you're slacking off.

Have you ever had this conversation at work?

P1: Wasn't Greg supposed to be back today?
P2: Yeah his leave ended yesterday. I guess he came down with a case of the "holiday blues" because he called in sick today!
P1: Wow, how unprofessional.
P2: Yeah, this isn't the first time either. He does this every time he takes leave.

Even putting the interpersonal aspect aside - it will make your attendance/leave records look off, which businesses tend to check in performance reviews and other scenarios - would you put "Greg the slacker" up for a raise or promotion? If you needed to lay off 50 people today, who's top of the list?

Only your boss will know why he is doing this. Maybe he genuinely believes he's doing you a favour. Maybe he's setting you up to look bad for some reason. My point is, don't let it continue. You need to tell them to enter your leave exactly as you requested it; it's not worth whatever benefit he thinks he's giving you.

Tell your boss you want to save your sick leave for when you are actually sick.

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Robotnik
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  • OP didn't do the calling in. 2) Outside of the boss and maybe admin, no one needs to know that OP is using sick leave instead of holiday leave, and 3) Such a petty work environment sounds horrible
    • – Mars Sep 18 '19 at 08:15
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    Another issue is if your HR department uses a Bradford factor to check sick days. – PeterI Sep 18 '19 at 08:22