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I am a junior developer, working for approximately two years at my current company. Lately things have not been great here (delayed raise, restructuring of the company, and lots of seniors leaving - which is not necessarily a good sign).

We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on). These were done "anonymously" (but the team lead figured who was who). The complaints also reached HR. We talked about the issues and I do understand that most of them are not easily solvable. I have starting applying to other companies, because it's very unlikely that I will stay much longer here.

Today I had a discussion with my HR representative. She told me that working for a company is similar to a relationship and that both sides need to make it work. She asked me about the raise situation and told me that is was most likely miscommunication. Also, she told me that in a relationship you have two options:

  • Change the things that do not work and adjust your behavior

  • Move on

Did she basically tell me to look for another company? I'm sorry now that I did not ask for a clarification, but I was in shock. She asked me what makes me happy here and there was not much to say. Yes, I do plan on leaving, but I would like to feel less pressed and stressed about it.

Peter Mortensen
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noisyRam
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    If you plan on leaving anyway, why would anything she says matter to you? – sf02 Jul 09 '19 at 15:40
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    HR people don't have that kind of authority. If it came from a line manager above you it might be different. – user207421 Jul 10 '19 at 08:07
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    It would help if you said where you're located. In the US, if you resign you don't get to collect unemployment benefits, if they fire you, you do. At least in some states, firing people can increase what they pay for unemployment insurance, so it's to their benefit to persuade you to quit. Assuming you haven't found a better job, it's to your benefit to stay. – jamesqf Jul 10 '19 at 16:44
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    @AntonSherwood if you had your eye on a senior position then it might be a good sign :-) – Aaron F Jul 10 '19 at 18:47
  • I'm not leaving in the US. Also, I won't resign unless I have another company to go to. So, it's only a matter of time and if they want to make my life a misery until I leave (I'm expecting this to last at most 3 months). – noisyRam Jul 11 '19 at 05:10
  • If we're using the relationship analogy, the company is a pretty abusive partner and you're already moving on. Just keep looking and hand in your notice when you get another job. – AJFaraday Jul 11 '19 at 09:59
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    "I have complained[...]. These were done "anonymously" (but the team lead figured who was who). [...] Today I had a discussion with my HR representative." What a great company. I think you could sue them over this in US or EU... This is not a suggestion but it seems beyond immoral. The HR also told 3. things, and it's a tautology. There are always those options: change things, adapt to things, leave. This list is exhaustive. – luk32 Jul 11 '19 at 12:03
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    "Today I had a discussion with my HR representative." --> who suggested the meeting? HR or noisyRam? – chux - Reinstate Monica Jul 11 '19 at 16:49
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    What strikes me about this is that this person made a very clear unambiguous and neutral statement, one that is just a universal truth, that you have multiple options and one is to leave but you interpreted it as something much different. This is a mistake and a bad habit that I see very often. I would recommend you try to get into a habit of taking people at their word. Listen to what they are actually saying and not the internal monologue in your head. It's frustrating to tell people things and then find out they have twisted it into something different than intended. – JimmyJames Jul 11 '19 at 18:13
  • @JimmyJames, this should be an answer. It is excellent advise and in my opinion exactly what is happening here. – Tyler S. Loeper Jul 11 '19 at 20:15
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    @TylerS.Loeper Thanks but I think PagMax's answer is sufficient. My comment is more of a side note. I've dealt with many people who seem unable to interpret statements without assuming unstated implications. The problem with this is that just because the listener thinks a statement implies something, it doesn't mean that the person making the statement believes it implies the same thing. This is especially true when there are cultural differences at play. Effective communicators are not unaware of implications but do not assume they are universally understood. – JimmyJames Jul 11 '19 at 20:28
  • @JimmyJames: Nonsense. Given the context, first the company lied about a raise, or at best broke their promise. HR trying to dismiss that as a 'misunderstanding' without actually trying to offer any solution ("We planned to do X in Y but then we changed our mind and now offer Z"), is dishonest, it's gaslighting. Also, her condescending list of options is missing one key option: 3. that the company would change the subset of things they're responsible for that do not work. Equivalently "we're not changing anything, deal with it". Would be good to know more context of what OP complained about. – smci Jul 11 '19 at 23:40
  • On a separate note, in this situation don't give 2 weeks notice. If you already have a job offer elsewhere and they dont care if you don't give 2 weeks notice to your current employer, then just leave. – Michael M Jul 12 '19 at 04:16
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    "Did she basically tell me to look for another company? (...) but I was in shock" -> I think it's a little unclear to you what the role of an HR person is. Look into it, I promise you the shock will dissipate very quickly ;) – Radu Murzea Jul 12 '19 at 06:25
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    The comment by the HR person reads like a friendly but stern reminder of the realities of the workplace: you need to work together is some way, and if that doesn't work out, it might be better to look elsewhere. Given the OP is a junior, I wonder if their expectations are too unrealistic and this is an attempt of the HR person to try and correct this. – Mark Rotteveel Jul 13 '19 at 13:29
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    "I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on)" is pretty much a laundry list of everything. Obviously they decided they can't satisfy you so they're not going to bother trying, or you're not worth it in their opinion. The trick is to complain rarely and specifically. Was there one or two specific things that are changeable? If not, don't waste your breath, find a better job and quit already, on okay terms. – smci Jul 13 '19 at 16:58

11 Answers11

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Did she basically tell me to look for another company?

If this is your main and only question, I will just answer that instead of telling you what you should do.

It is impossible to tell with complete confidence what she meant when she told you what she told you. However, I would interpret more as:

"Stop complaining, focus on your work by looking at the positive aspects about your job and if you cannot do that, get out".

This is slightly different from your interpretation.

PagMax
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    "Put up or shut up" – Richard Jul 10 '19 at 06:48
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    That was my interpretation too. To put it more charitably, she's asking, are these things you don't like about the job things you are willing to learn to live with if they cannot be changed. But yes, the implication is that if you can't live with things the company is unwilling to change, that's basically an impasse that can only be resolved in one other way. – delinear Jul 10 '19 at 09:25
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    @Richard In 'Put up or Shut up', doesn't both kind of mean same thing? If the OP has to put up with the company then they would have to shut up as well! Unless in this case by 'shut up' you mean, leave. – PagMax Jul 10 '19 at 10:05
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    @PagMax "Put up" isn't the same as "Put up with it". It means take action. So take action (leave) or remain silent (get on with the work). – Jamie Butterworth Jul 10 '19 at 10:36
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    Thanks @JamieButterworth got it! – PagMax Jul 10 '19 at 11:00
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    Same concept, but even more clear: On behalf of the company, she said, "The company is not going to change." – donjuedo Jul 10 '19 at 13:03
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    To be clear, “put up” refers to put your money up. Put something on the line, participate, or else don’t talk. In this case, the money is translated to effort and “shut up” is to stop complaining. – vol7ron Jul 11 '19 at 11:11
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Am I subtly told to resign?

In this case: Why / what does it matter?

Always remember: HR is not our friend, they will always try to protect the company's interest.

In this case, HR sees (or, you are portrayed as) you as someone who is complaining, and given that you started the process "anonymously" and got exposed later - somehow depicts either of two:

  • The anonymity of the (any) process in the organization is questionable
  • You did not want to stand up for the problems you are facing, rather tried hiding behind the cloak of anonymity.

In this scenario, irrespective of what HR said, I'd advise: accelerate the process of job search and move out. This does not sound like a workplace you want to continue.

To add, you already said:

I have starting applying to other companies because it's very unlikely that I will stay much longer here.

So, that's it, you already have started the process. What the HR has said now should not matter much and you also should not be bothered whether they are trying to hint you to quit : do it yourself.

Michael Wang
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Sourav Ghosh
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    Why does HR have to be the enemy here? (Not our friend). That sounded like pretty legit advice to give to a friend. "Complaining doesn't solve anything. Do something about it. Trying to fix things is an option, leaving is an option. Being a toxic (coworker or friend) is not an option" – Mars Jul 10 '19 at 04:17
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    @Mars "We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on)"...if complaining about things are being "toxic", then we all are toxic. There is a difference between complaining and nagging. – Sourav Ghosh Jul 10 '19 at 04:31
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    Complaining about things in the team can be pretty toxic, depending on how and when. The team lead probably also isn't in a position to change OP's salary or the office. OP expressed their concerns at least once, got reasons, produced zero or inadequate solutions, and sounds as if they are still complaining. They basically got told to be part of the solution, not the problem. – Mars Jul 10 '19 at 04:37
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    I'm so tired of the "HR isn't your friend!" trope. HR works for the company. If your beef is in the best interests of the company, HR can be your best buddy. What some people seem to believe is that HR is like the "police" and they can rat their boss (lead, co-workers, whoever stocks the office supplies and toilet paper ...) out to HR and get 'em good. Yeah, HR doesn't do that. – Julie in Austin Jul 10 '19 at 18:45
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    @Mars Perhaps better phrasing is “useless to the employee” vs. “not a friend”? I often find HR to be likable people and I think they want to help. In this case the advice was true, but really had no new information. It’s a perception issue. HR says, “you can come to us with anything.” Excepting fairly narrow scenarios outside of the mechanics of benefits, they generally can do nothing or in “opening a dialog” often make things worse. – SemiGeek Jul 10 '19 at 19:01
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    I'd be extremely upset if feedback was solicited anonymously then my comments used against me. – Rob Crawford Jul 10 '19 at 19:46
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    @Mars How exactly do you expect OP to produce a "solution" to his lack of a raise or seniors leaving? The solution is to give him (and possibly them) that raise, and it's gotta be produced by the company, not OP. – Demonblack Jul 11 '19 at 17:00
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All great answers above. In short yes, you are told to

deal with it or resign

I'm a senior developer now (10+ years) but I've been through this stage of struggle in personal development.

If you've had regular formal reviews, it is a common practice to belittle your achievements and exaggerate your failures, which usually means another yellow/red flag to consider resignation. For example if you had 100 things done right, they'll pick the smallest 3. And if you did 3 things wrong, they will all be on the review, in shiny colors.

There are some informal phrases that are subtly telling you to resign.

In short anything that is telling you obvious things about titles and subordination.

Or anything directly targeted at you and/or which qualities of yours make you a bad fit.

Below are some example phrases and their loose translation (you may have heard some of these well before the last conversation with HR, so those could have been some yellow/warning flags, if we consider the last conversation a red flag):

  • "You need to understand that" - it is you who needs to understand, not them
  • "I am your manager" ("She/He is your manager") "... architect, team lead etc" - and you are a junior.
  • "People complained about you" - exactly 1 person complained, but let's make a deal out of it, because there is really nothing else against you.
  • "You were late from lunch break by 5min" - well, if nothing else.
  • "Stop being defensive/aggressive" - nobody cares about your opinion/feelings, just follow orders.
  • "You are being very (any negative word)" - no other facts, blame personality, you can't argue this way.
  • "We don't have time for (something)" - we don't care about (something)

And weirdly enough:

  • "You are a great member of our team", "...very talented developer" etc, especially if you hear this often in 1-on-1 conversations and never in team discussions - means no raise/pay, but the company will tolerate you for the time being.

I haven't been to the stage when I'm told about an option of moving on, just never waited that long before leaving. However, if you tell them you even remotely consider leaving, in any shape or form - consider yourself written off. They'll just look for a good moment to let you go. So treat them the same, I think it's fair.

Hope this helps you in future career, so that you can make informed choices sooner. Most important lesson I learnt - if you want to switch jobs and can afford the uncertainty, then go ahead and do it, it will almost always work in your favor, no matter the struggle in between the current you and the success that lies ahead.

Victor Zakharov
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    This appears to be a rather good manual for something but not quite on topic for this question. :( – Joshua Jul 10 '19 at 02:53
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    This is great advice! Also, never believe your employer when they claim that something you say will be treated anonymously. Especially when they ask for "honest and anonymous feedback", it's usually a trap to identify who they need to deal with. – Niko1978 Jul 10 '19 at 05:57
  • @Joshua: meant to supplement existing answers and expand on the topic. Also for future visitors who may find it useful when coming from search engines. – Victor Zakharov Jul 10 '19 at 11:39
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    Another of my personal favorites is "we need you to be a team player." What this actually means is "we need you to do things you were not hired to do, that fall well outside of your core competencies, and we're not willing to put up the time and money to train you in it." (In an actual team, the players have well-defined roles; you don't put your pitcher in the outfield or have Nate hack the computers and Sophie fight the thugs!) – Mason Wheeler Jul 10 '19 at 12:22
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    This answer is a pleasent change from the usual ones here. It really resonantes with my experience of reviews. Focussing on small insignificant "problems" despite doing 100 good things, etc. Really is a massive red flag and usually highlights both personality and managerial problems... – user9993 Jul 10 '19 at 12:28
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    Your answer is a breath of fresh air and good advice for the future. – noisyRam Jul 10 '19 at 13:15
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    The "You are a great member of our team" happened a lot to me here, but when I pointed it out, my teamleader said that I'm too much of a perfectionist and that the team appreciates me a lot and that they enjoy working with me. But I always felt like it was a discrepancy between actions and bi-annual evaluation. (Evaluation was always good, pointing some improvements that should be done, whereas code reviews often required re-implementations) – noisyRam Jul 10 '19 at 13:25
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    @MasonWheeler great reference! (and I'm proud of myself for getting it before clicking the link.) – FreeMan Jul 10 '19 at 14:21
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I believe that the message was more like, "We aren't going to be able to restructure every aspect of your work experience to your satisfaction, so if you're serious about these complaints, you should just move on."

So it may be a gentle attempt to get to commit to dealing with the reality of things staying as they are or commit to leaving, but I wouldn't call it a direct call for you to resign.

I seems like they have noticed that you are making multiple complaints about wide reaching issues and want you to know that they are unable or unwilling to expend the resources to resolve your current issues.

Meg
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Going to throw in another interpretation:

There are issues in the company. There are reasons for those issues, as we have previously discussed. We can't magically make them go away, so either be part of the solution, adapt, be silent (not specifically mentioned as an option), or go away.

Complainers accomplish little. It sounds like you've already spoken about the root reasons behind those complaints, and you don't seem to have a way to fix it.

Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that.

But not everything can be fixed. And if you feel that is the case, or that fixing things isn't worth the effort, then finding a better environment is probably in your best interest.

I wouldn't consider that pressure from your HR rep--more like genuine career advice.

Mars
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    "Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that." This doesn't really align with my experience - usually anyone wishing to bring change however small or helpful it is are (unfairly) viewed negatively. Maybe I've just worked for bad companies... – user9993 Jul 10 '19 at 12:30
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    Let me concurr: I've seen plenty of business situations where managers claim they want to fix things, but when it comes down to it they don't actually want to make the changes necessary to fix things. (Many, perhaps most, people are uncomfortable with change.) – cjs Jul 11 '19 at 00:43
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    @user9993 I think that mostly depends on whether or not the company sees it as an actual problem. I think we all often feel that resistance to making things better when it requires some kind of change, IF things weren't broken to begin with. I think you typically have more luck when you present a plan, a small budget, and offer to do all/most of the work – Mars Jul 11 '19 at 05:30
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    This is the only answer so far that accounts for the "Change the things that do not work" part of the non-quitting option. All the others focus just on the "...and adjust your behavior" part of that option. I agree with this answer in that I don't think the HR rep was saying "shut up or get out". I think it's more like "help change what you can and adjust your expectations where things can't change or your behaviors if you're at fault, or find a better fit elsewhere if that doesn't work for you". It really didn't sound toxic to me--surprisingly gracious, actually. Good answer. – bob Jul 11 '19 at 16:31
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HR are not stupid enough to directly pressure you to leave. That may be illegal in your country anyway. But I would translate the coded message as

"The company is not going to change any time soon. That piece of information may be useful to you when making your own decision about your future career plans."

Informally, you have already been marked down as a potential trouble maker and likely leaver. Of course you won't find those words on any records that you could produce in an industrial relations tribunal for unfair dismissal, but the objective record of what you have done and said - and the fact that this meeting with HR took place - won't be forgotten if you stay.

alephzero
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  • I translated the message as "yes, the company is going down. Abandon ship as soon as you can." – Robin Bennett Jul 10 '19 at 13:58
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    HR can be very explicit with the "pressure to leave" thing. HR serves the company. They are also very good at serving the company. – Julie in Austin Jul 10 '19 at 18:47
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    "won't be forgotten if you stay" -- chilling and accurate -- perhaps the best part of your answer and a great phrase to end with. – user23715 Jul 10 '19 at 20:05
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To be clear here, @PagMax has already provided a perfect answer to the main question - whether you are 'subtly being told to resign' or not.

The answer is - you're being told to either accept the company's practices or resign.

Which is a subtle way of saying that your demands are not going to be met by the company.

Do not change your current course of action

In your question, you describe how you are subtly looking for work elsewhere while keeping your current job.

You should continue to do this. It is apparent that you are dissatisfied with your working conditions, and HR has made it clear to you that those conditions are not going to change.

Do not be pressured into resigning early - provide your two-weeks resignation (assuming this is the standard in your geographic region) only when you have a new job lined up.

HR does not want to be paying into a resource that will dry up shortly - but that is their prerogative, not yours. Your prerogative is keeping this job up until you find better work, and only then resigning.

Zibbobz
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No actually it's more complex than that. She clearly told you that you might resign or possibly get fired as well! The both sides need to make it work that you mention plus the metaphor of the relationship is the important part. It sends a clear message that the bullet points work both ways. Now combining this with your bullet points we can translate as follows:

  • Both parties of the relationship change the things that do not work and adjust their behavior.
  • If one one of them is unhappy moves on and the relationship is broken.

Having that in mind she also told you that the raise thing is a misunderstanding so it's a clear sign that they are willing to make changes from their side. The ball is in your court now and you need to decide:

  1. Is this step enough for you to keep the relationship?
  2. If the answer to 1. is yes, then do you want to make changes as well and ask if there is something from your side to change?

I skip the "no" part in 1. as you already said that you are thinking of leaving. In my opinion and without knowing the details of your conversation, she seems to me very professional and diplomatic. If only I had half of this professionalism and even half of this "subtlety" in the jobs that I've been, I would have been a very happy person.

Stelios Adamantidis
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  • +1 This is exactly what’s going on. They find your current state to not be that of a good employee. They are saying “Hey... Either focus on the good, or maybe you should be looking for another job, because if you continue to just be an unhappy complainer it’s likely we will let you go in favor of someone who is excited about the job in the future.” – mxyzplk Sep 11 '20 at 13:18
1

What the HR person said was wrong. There are three ways, not two:

  1. Change the things that don't work and adjust your behaviour.
  2. Move on.
  3. Stay glued to your chair and make them pay your salary and redundancy, while looking for a new job.

It is much cheaper for the company if you quit. Therefore, you don't quit. If HR wants you to quit, that means you owe the company nothing anymore; make them pay, and especially make them pay you, if they want to get rid of you.

gnasher729
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She gave you the freedom to interpret it as you wish.

So is it. If she had wanted to fire you, she had communicated that. If she formulates unclear, that means that she does not want to communicate what she did not. They are the experts (in theory) of the personal matters and not you.

Of course you have all the reasons to start to check your alternatives, it would be so even without this HR talk.

But, you have not got a clear message to start to seek your next job.

Other answerers would say "leave", but I think it is easy to give ideas for others, if not we need to accept the consequences.

In your case, what I would do: I would fight for my job until the last shot - but, I would also seek for the next one, for the case of a firing.

Don't resign for an unclear HR statement. Don't resign even for a clear one. Resign only if you already have your new job, and it is really much better than your current one.

Gray Sheep
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"Firing you would be some extra work for us, please help us by harming your career"

This is a way to interpret, what she did.

Of course their problems are their problems, and your career is your career.

So, don't resign, but look for your next job. If they fire, you will have more chance. If they don't, you will be able to choose between a switch or to remain.

No, you don't need to make their task easier, particularly if you don't get anything back, particularly not for people considering your firing.

Gray Sheep
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