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A member of my family (who is a French citizen) is currently applying for the Visa Waiver Program of the USA. The member was born in a city in former French Algeria (before independence).

In the field "Country of Birth", should he therefore select "France" (as the city was located in the former French Algeria) or "Algeria" (the country where the city is now)?

JoErNanO
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A. Camus
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3 Answers3

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It's worth pointing out the guidelines the USA itself applies to U.S. passport holders:

(My emphasis)

7 FAM 1330 APPENDIX D  BIRTH OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES - CURRENT SOVEREIGNTY RULE

(CT:CON-254;   04-29-2008)

a. It is the Department of State policy that place of birth in a U.S. passport should reflect the current sovereignty as determined by the Office of the Geographer (INR/GGI) and the regional geographic bureau.

b. As a general rule, the country that currently has sovereignty over the actual place of birth is listed as the place of birth, regardless of when the birth occurred.  Passport authorizing officers must use the country of birth as it is now known for a place of birth listing, unless otherwise specified in this appendix.

c.  For a location whose sovereignty is in dispute, is not yet resolved, or is not recognized by the United States, this appendix provides specific guidance.

Source: 7 FAM 1300 APPENDIX D

I'm not sure whether France has a similar guideline, but if they don't, going with the above (meaning: Algeria, not France) may be your safest bet. This would also be in line with Spehro's answer.

Community
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MH.
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  • I agree - I've always used Croatia as my country of birth (even though Croatia was part of Yugoslavia back when I was born, and only later gained independence). – Matija Nalis Feb 13 '17 at 11:57
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    @MatijaNalis It is nothing obvious about this regulation. Other countries, e.g. Germany where place of birth is an import attribute for identification purposes, use the name at time of birth, optionally with an addition 'now: new-name'. – Tor-Einar Jarnbjo Feb 13 '17 at 13:37
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    As far as I can tell the German law differs from this. My mother was born in what is today Poland, but was back then (1944) part of Germany. Her passport uses the German (and not the Polish) name of the town and she is considered "born in Germany" - as opposed to "born in the German Empire", which would have been correct at the time. So I would "Germany, Federal Republic of" take to be the current name, not "Poland, Republic of". – Marianne013 Feb 13 '17 at 22:25
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    @Marianne013 but according to the rules above, applying for US VISA you should pick 'Poland'. It doesn't matter what is logical or what makes sense when it comes to particular legal regulations ... –  Feb 14 '17 at 07:44
  • @Marianne013, Germany is different specifically in this respect because is has legal standards about who is a German native vs who is a German citizen based on whether a person can prove that one of their ancestors was born in Germany before 1913. – Dmitry Rubanovich Feb 14 '17 at 22:41
  • @9ilsdx 9rvj 0lo: Well, she didn't and it was no problem. Given that the passport doesn't state the country of birth it's not obvious to me, how anyone is meant to tell, unless you are born somewhere famous. – Marianne013 Feb 15 '17 at 00:34
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    The FAM link is now broken. 7 FAM 1300 was removed in mid July. I haven't found where it was moved to, if anywhere. – phoog Nov 27 '18 at 04:54
  • @phoog: Good catch! It looks like parts of 7 FAM 1300 were moved to 8 FAM 400. Specifically 8 FAM 403.4. I was hopeful when I saw the table at 403.4-7, as it lists a number of former French colonies, but unfortunately French Algeria isn't there. However, I do think the above answer (and emphasis) still applies: the place of birth and the country with current sovereignty are leading when determining country of birth. – MH. Nov 27 '18 at 07:29
  • Yes, the answer is definitely correct. A search for the phrase "current sovereignty" within 8 FAM turns up a some relevant passages, especially "Nothing in this section should be interpreted to suggest that the Department of State list a POB on a Department-issued citizenship document that is inconsistent with the Departments position on the current sovereignty of a geographic area." – phoog Nov 27 '18 at 07:36
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Algeria. A look at the (electronic) form DS-160 tells you this:

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Spehro Pefhany
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  • Assuming that the same is valid for the ESTA application, which electronic form does not have the same guideline. – Tor-Einar Jarnbjo Feb 12 '17 at 20:29
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    Isn't that for places that change their name, rather than regions that belong to a completely different country now? – RemcoGerlich Feb 12 '17 at 20:34
  • @RemcoGerlich Seems pretty all-inclusive and unambiguous to me. It has 'regions' like Hong Kong and Gaza Strip. – Spehro Pefhany Feb 12 '17 at 20:37
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    I think it is ambiguous, depending on how you interpret "place". Is "place" the city? Then the city has changed countries since the OP's relative's birth, and the country it currently belongs to should be chosen. Or is "place" the country? In that case, the OP's relative was born in France, and the same name is still in use for that country. – O. R. Mapper Feb 12 '17 at 23:57
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    @O.R.Mapper No, "Place" is one of country/region (see the "Help: Country/Region"), the distinction between which is left deliberately unstated to deal with places that are not necessarily recognized as countries but effectively are 'different' such as Hong Kong and Gaza. That's the only reason they don't just say "country"- it would get certain folks' knickers in a twist to refer to certain places as countries. – Spehro Pefhany Feb 13 '17 at 00:04
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    Hence, "France" is the right answer? – O. R. Mapper Feb 13 '17 at 00:14
  • @O.R.Mapper LOL Okay, I see your point but I don't think so. Very Lewis Carroll. – Spehro Pefhany Feb 13 '17 at 00:17
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    Note that I'm not claiming either France or Algeria is correct. I'm just saying that to me, the description of the "Country/Region" field seems absolutely ambiguous, and either choice would fit equally well, depending on how you interpret that ambiguous description. – O. R. Mapper Feb 13 '17 at 00:20
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    @O.R.Mapper: "Place" as in, the exact point (latitude and longitude) on the Earth's surface. Your city might get divided between 2 countries. But the exact point location is still currently in one country or another. – user102008 Feb 13 '17 at 03:41
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    The OP was born in France. The name that is currently in use for the place when the OP was born, the France, is France. Did I get something wrong? –  Feb 13 '17 at 10:51
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    @9ilsdx9rvj0lo Yes, yes, you did. – Benjamin Feb 13 '17 at 11:38
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    "Place" usually refers to a physical location. The name of that location can change, but the location itself doesn't change, hence @user102008 reference to latitude & longitude. See also, MH's answer – FreeMan Feb 13 '17 at 22:00
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It is pretty obvious that the point of the question is to locate the place of birth on a current map. Therefore, you put the current name of the country, which is Algeria.

The standard advice with visa applications is to be as honest and straightforward as possible. Any attempt to game the system is bound to end badly.

To forestall the pedants, place clearly refers to city/town/village - not country or they wouldn't also ask for country. If you were free to interpret place as freely as some of the comments above suggest, you could put Planet Earth. Good luck with that at Immigration Control.

Oscar Bravo
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    "It is pretty obvious that the point of the question is to locate the place of birth on a current map." - actually, it is not at all obvious whether a border protection agency is more interested in the geographical location or the political affiliation of a given place. – O. R. Mapper Feb 14 '17 at 11:50
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    @O.R.Mapper Just provide them with the location and let them worry about the politics; that's their job. – Oscar Bravo Feb 14 '17 at 12:05
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    @OscarBravo If I've learned anything from all the questions and stories about intentional travel I've read on this site, it's that, "Let them worry about the details," is a horrible idea if successfully getting entry is important to you. – jpmc26 Feb 14 '17 at 21:22
  • @jpmc26 You're absolutely right... In the alternative universe where I said what you quoted. – Oscar Bravo Feb 16 '17 at 07:54
  • @OscarBravo That isn't intended as a direct quote. And if you can't see the parallel between, "let them worry about the politics," and, "Let them worry about the details," then you've missed the point. – jpmc26 Feb 16 '17 at 15:47
  • @jpmc26 You got me... I really don't get the point of changing quotes to suit your agenda. Over and out. – Oscar Bravo Feb 18 '17 at 07:46