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According to Glen Brown, “One of the greatest things about Andorra is that the country is outside the EU and this is why you get duty free. This means when you need to do your 90 days out of the Schengen zone you can do those 90 days in Andorra if you wanted to and then slip back into the Schengen zone for another 90 days again.”

I am suspicious that there is some detail that Mr. Brown has overlooked.  I read elsewhere that Andorra had agreements with both Spain and France to not let in anyone who isn’t legally authorized to be in those countries. I’ve also read a claim that Andorra allows a tourist 183 days and another saying it is only ninety.  An actual residence permit has a set of financial requirements much higher than that of Spain.

Would it actually be legal to alternate between Andorra and France or Spain?

If Andorra limits one to ninety days, and measures it the same way Schengen does, then I think it wouldn’t work, because the day you cross the border counts for both.

Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Schengen_Area#How_many_micro_states?

WGroleau
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  • Possible duplicate of: https://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/68836/does-time-spent-in-non-schengen-european-microstates-count-against-the-available – JonathanReez Aug 12 '22 at 02:15
  • Note that Glenn Brown is talking about living in Andorra. He's not talking about just visiting Andorra for 90 days. – DJClayworth Jul 13 '23 at 14:50
  • @DJClayworth. True. But since Andorra is not part of Schengen, that raises the question whether Andorra is of the class that requires a visa or the class that is 90/180 visa-exempt. I see no practical detail distinguishing Andorra from Monaco, San Marino, & Vatican, yet several sources mention them and omit Andorra as "de facto" part of Schengen. – WGroleau Jul 13 '23 at 16:38
  • @WGroleau Unless you are an Andorran citizen (as opposed to resident) that is not going to make any difference. I would be astonished if Andorran citizens aren't given free access to Schengen. – DJClayworth Jul 13 '23 at 18:08
  • @DJClayworth For short term visits, citizens of Andorra, Monaco and San Marino are treated as EU citizens insofar as their documents are not stamped (Article 11(3)(e) Schengen Border Code). For long term residence a residence permit may be required depending on the national law. – Mark Johnson Jul 13 '23 at 18:36

2 Answers2

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Would it actually be legal to alternate between Andorra and France or Spain?

Yes, on condition that when entering Andorra you have a Schengen Area exit stamp and when leaving Andorra have a Schengen Area entry stamp.

As far as the Schengen Border Code, is concerned, it is the proper entry/exit stamps that counts (assuming you don't require a visa) for short term stays.

Without the entry/exit stamps you are assumed to have overstayed (Article 12 (1,4)), unless you can prove otherwise (Article 12 (2)).

Schengen Border Code
Article 12
Presumption as regards fulfilment of conditions of duration of stay
(1) If the travel document of a third-country national does not bear an entry stamp, the competent national authorities may presume that the holder does not fulfil, or no longer fulfils, the conditions of duration of stay applicable within the Member State concerned.
(2) The presumption referred to in paragraph 1 may be rebutted where the third-country national provides, by any means, credible evidence, such as transport tickets or proof of his or her presence outside the territory of the Member States, that he or she has respected the conditions relating to the duration of a short stay.
...
(4) The relevant provisions of paragraphs 1 and 2 shall apply mutatis mutandis in the absence of an exit stamp.

Sources:

Mark Johnson
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  • I edited a caveat into the question that might be an obstacle. Ninety days each might still be a Schengen problem because each transfer day counts for both. – WGroleau Aug 12 '22 at 00:44
  • @WGroleau There is no reason to believe that that is the case (without an Andorian law source hard to say for sure). With Romania and Bulgaria it is not the case. – Mark Johnson Aug 12 '22 at 00:50
  • Apparently Google Translate is worse at French than I am. But I found the Spanish version, and it only applies to nationals of Spain, Andorra, or France. How to get a residence permit or a Schengen visa is irrelevant, as the question is for those who DON'T have either. – WGroleau Aug 12 '22 at 03:45
  • There is no reason to believe Andorra will count the day of entry and the day of exit, true. There is also no reason to believe they won't. I look at some pertinent Andorran government documents, but none of them mentioned a limit to the duration of stay, much less how it is counted. – WGroleau Aug 12 '22 at 03:50
  • Physical presence IS officially the deciding factor, but the best evidence would be the stamps. Even that isn't very good evidence, though it would probably be accepted. But after actually spending four days there, I'm certain it would be quite easy to get an entry stamp on the main road and leave by another road (there are more than a dozen), then sneak back in for an exit stamp. However, the question is about what is LEGAL. – WGroleau Aug 12 '22 at 03:59
  • Correction: I found the Spanish version of a different document. And searches of BOE (so far) have not located the Spanish for the one cited here. After studying the French one along with Google's version, it seem to apply only to rules for visas and residence permits. But with all three agreeing to treat nationals, visas, and residence permits with the same rules, likely (?) they would do the same for visa-exempt folks. – WGroleau Aug 12 '22 at 04:06
  • @WGroleau I added the french link (which was inside the first Andorra Guides link) for informational purposes only. – Mark Johnson Aug 12 '22 at 05:56
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    @WGroleau Physical presence IS officially the deciding factor: says who? What is your source? I have added the relavent portions of the Schengen Border Code Article 12 that states the exact opposite. – Mark Johnson Aug 12 '22 at 06:12
  • As a better alternative to Google Translate, consider Deepl Translate. – gerrit Aug 12 '22 at 08:29
  • @gerrit Just tried this and there are only 2 words that are different and the first seems to me to be better. Have added the French original so that french speakers can suggest any adjustments (my french is not good enough to judge). – Mark Johnson Aug 12 '22 at 08:44
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    It says "may presume …" Presume what? Physical presence. And then it offers the option of proving that presence in other ways. Which is exactly what I did when Spain falsely claimed I had been in Schengen fifteen months. (Ironically, I later realized that the exit stamp they had missed was completely legible.) – WGroleau Aug 12 '22 at 16:48
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    @MarkJohnson Regarding Article 12: If you had read and understood what you are quoting instead of emphasizing sentence fragments, which alone and taken out of context are meaningless, you wuld have realized that WGroleau is right. Without stamps, the authorities 'may presume' that the conditions for stay are not fulfilled, but the traveller can 'by any means' prove that he has been outside the Schengen area even if stamps are missing. – Tor-Einar Jarnbjo Aug 12 '22 at 17:35
  • @WGroleau 'Presume what?': As the heading of Article 12 states: Presumption as regards fulfilment of conditions of duration of stay. As for your stamp problem, that will soon be resolved by the Entry/Exit System (EES) expected in May 2023. – Mark Johnson Aug 12 '22 at 21:50
  • @MarkJohnson "As for your stamp problem, that will soon be resolved by the Entry/Exit System (EES) expected in May 2023": are French and Spanish border agencies planning to monitor travelers crossing into their territory from Andorra for possible registration in EES? I haven't been to that border, but from what I read here I get the impression that enforcement is fairly sporadic. – phoog Apr 24 '23 at 18:46
  • @phoog Doubtfull that anyone really cares. In the end it is up to the traveller to insure that they have the correct entry/exit stamp/entries. Article 12 (1) If the travel document of a third-country national does not bear an entry stamp, the competent national authorities may presume that the holder does not fulfil, or no longer fulfils, the conditions of duration of stay applicable within the Member State concerned. (4) the same for the exit stamp. – Mark Johnson Apr 24 '23 at 19:26
  • It that is true then the EES system won't in fact resolve the stamp problem, will it? – phoog Apr 24 '23 at 20:43
  • @phoog The amount is so small that it probably not really considered a problem. Unless the traveller gets the stamps, then it is not documented that they left. A similar situation as when going to Canada from the US and then returning. – Mark Johnson Apr 24 '23 at 22:33
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Although Andorra’s agreements with France and Spain make it effectively part of Schengen, this can (allegedly) be avoided by requesting entry and exit stamps at the border.  I’m skeptical, due to the near impossibility of being able to prove one spent all the claimed time (ninety days) within Andorra’s borders.  Since checks aren't generally done at Andorra's borders, it would be easy to get a stamp at the Spanish border control site, immediately leave at another site, and reverse the procedure 90+ days later.  Of course, that would be illegal and would present a (small) risk of being caught—a Spanish official might look through your passport and see that you entered Andorra but don't have an exit stamp.

WGroleau
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  • And who’s going to believe that you didn't pull that trick? Find a security camera in Andorra, and sit in front of it for the entire ninety days? – WGroleau Apr 24 '23 at 17:42
  • The most important element here is not Andorran border enforcement, however, but French and Spanish border enforcement. If the traveler has a Schengen exit stamp, it does not matter whether there is an Andorran entry stamp, and if there is a Schengen entry stamp, an Andorran exit stamp is similarly unnecessary. "would be easy to get a stamp at the Spanish border control site, immediately leave at another site": wouldn't Spain or France inspect the traveler and stamp the passport on re-entry into the Schengen area? – phoog Apr 24 '23 at 20:40
  • Maybe. When I entered Andorra, no one looked at anything. Same when I left. So, I could honestly claim I was out of Schengen four days, but I couldn't prove it. But if I were a French or Spanish official, I would be inclined to distrust stamps implying ninety days in Andorra. And looking at maps and aerial images, I see that there are paths crossing the Andorran border that don't have any buildings. Point is that although it appears to be a legal strategy, I really doubt anyone could actually do it (if they even want to). – WGroleau Apr 24 '23 at 23:59
  • And I didn't mean to say who would make the stamps (I'll edit). Point is that without consistent checks, such stamps don't prove anything. I went in and out by bus, and no one on the bus was checked or stamped. Bus didn't even stop. – WGroleau Apr 25 '23 at 00:07
  • I was thinking of Schengen checks without Andorra checks. I have no idea whether that happens nor how frequently, but certainly between western Switzerland and France it is often the case that one country is operating and the other isn't. (These are of course only customs checks since both are in the Schengen area.) If border stations operate on published hours then one could make a point of going when they're open. I suspect the presumption that the stamps reflect reality would be enough even if it's trivially easy to circumvent controls during the time one is supposedly remaining in Andorra. – phoog Apr 25 '23 at 08:54
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    Presumed guilty until proven innocent then? – hippietrail Apr 25 '23 at 10:43
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    @hippietrail I believe that the burden of proof would lie with the state. That is, if someone has stamps showing a departure from Spain or France into Andorra and a return 91 days later, the border authorities would not be able to impose a penalty without evidence of an undocumented crossing of the border in the meanwhile. The fact that it would be easy to do this isn't evidence that the traveler actually did it. The presumption is that the stamps are correct and the burden of proof lies with the person claiming that they are not (whether the claim is of guilt or innocence). – phoog Apr 25 '23 at 11:21
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    The burden of proof would lie with the state for prosecuting you as a criminal. However the state may decline to admit anyone for any reason they feel like. So while you might avoid criminal charges you would probably end up being barred from Schengen if they suspected you had done this. – DJClayworth Jul 13 '23 at 14:29