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While in Beijing recently I had an ATM belonging to the largest bank in the world (the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China) issue me with a sheaf of nice crisp new counterfeit notes. I noticed this soon after when taxis, fruit shops etc refused the notes. Closer inspection revealed that several even had the same serial number. I went inside the bank (branch is adjacent to the ATM) with an interpreter from the place I was staying. They basically shrugged and sent me away. When I went to the police station with the same interpreter it became apparent that I would be there for hours getting nothing done and I gave up there too. The bank's position was "We don't operate the ATMs that's another company". This despite the ATMs being branded ICBC and on the same premises as the ICBC branch.

The money was withdrawn on an Australian credit card, about AU$250 or so, so I presume the ATM has been programmed to target just foreign credit cards to avoid locals arriving with pitchforks to burn down the bank.

My question is: Can I submit a claim on my credit card to be refunded? In the same way that I can with non-supply of goods from a vendor.

Also: Is there any other recourse against what you would suppose to be a reputable bank?

theonetruepath
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    No I would say not the bank policy, not my assumption at all. Almost certainly someone in the ATM-managing company. But more to the point, some group of people relativelyhigh up in that company, able to influence programming of that ATM. Because the notes are photographed (just the serial numbers) as they leave the machine. And bank employees are able to see those photos, and were able to show me photos of real serial numbers (which were not the ones I received). So my assumption is that significant control over the ATM is required to accomplish that, probably well beyond an individual. – theonetruepath Jan 10 '20 at 04:32
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    Furthermore, I would say that in any other country, something like this happening regularly would be detected and stamped out very quickly. For this to continue for many years (according to travel forums) means that a culture of permitting it exists. I don't know whether this culture penetrates into the bank, but I know they are aware of it and are either unable or unwilling to fix it. And I can't see how they would be unable year upon year to fix this. A simple phone call to the ATM managing company: "We have had 2300 ATM frauds from your ATMs in the last month. Fix it today." – theonetruepath Jan 10 '20 at 04:37
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    @theonetruepath China is not a normal country, one of the big issues here is corruption and fraud, I estimate it will take another 50 years before they reach acceptable standards, also note that many Chinese people think fraud is ok, it’s almost as if you have to cheat to get ahead, the new president is trying to stifle this but it will take time – Matt Douhan Jan 10 '20 at 05:34
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    This isn't unique to China. It happens all over the world. I was once given a fake €50 note in Spain. The bank said I couldn't prove that I had withdrawn that note from their machine. Now I count my cash in front of the cash machine's camera in an attempt to have some evidence. – Aaron F Jan 10 '20 at 09:49
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    "in any other country, something like this happening regularly would be detected and stamped out very quickly" - would it? It doesn't cost the banks anything to ignore the problem, but would cost them a lot to reimburse everyone affected. How would they be able to distinguish real victims from counterfeiters? Cash also costs them a lot of money to deal with, and fewer people will use cash if there's a higher risk of counterfeit notes, so there's not much incentive to solve the problem. – Aaron F Jan 10 '20 at 09:57
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    @theonetruepath - thanks for sharing this story, amazing! Just one small point, there'd be no technical way for the ATM to dispense from a "fake batch" or a "real batch" at will (well, it would be a utterly different ATM engineering pipeline; I guess not impossible!) thanks again! – Fattie Jan 10 '20 at 14:30
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    Your credit card company is probably the place to ask if you can get money back from your credit card company. – puppetsock Jan 10 '20 at 14:59
  • Possibly relevant in terms of culture: https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/52937/german-idiomatic-equivalents-of-%E8%83%BD%E9%AA%97%E5%B0%B1%E9%AA%97-if-you-can-cheat-then-cheat – VGR Jan 10 '20 at 16:14
  • @NateEldredge I also state that the bank's position is that they are not responsible for the operation of the ATMs. They also said that they are never in a position to access their innards. It's clear to me that the ATM operating company is directly at fault here, and the bank is at fault for allowing this to persist given that the ATMs are branded by the bank. "Come and use our nice ATMs. Oh it stole your money, well it's not our fault we don't operate them" – theonetruepath Jan 10 '20 at 17:43
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    @Fattie Most machines have multiple cassettes of money--usually one per denomination but it doesn't have to be. It would be theoretically possible for the ATM to be programmed to dispense 100s from cassette A to foreigners and 100s from cassette B to locals. – Loren Pechtel Jan 10 '20 at 23:00
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    @LorenPechtel , my company has only done limited work on ATM-related software. So I can't give you an absolutely definitive answer. But it is incredibly far-fetched. "theoretically possible" has literally no meaning. For example, it is (totally) "theoretically possible" that a human is behind an actually hollowed-out ATM and shoving out notes. – Fattie Jan 12 '20 at 15:52
  • @Fattie We have some ATMs here with multiple cassettes of the same denomination--for a high volume ATM it reduces the servicing interval. – Loren Pechtel Jan 13 '20 at 00:55

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This has happened to me multiple times with local cards as well so I doubt they target foreign cards.

Every time the police have helped me rather swiftly, provided me with a copy of the case registered which I took to the bank who then changed the money for me without delay at all.

But yes dealing with Chinese police can be frustrating and take a long time but it is what is it, can’t say it’s much quicker in sweden or other countries where I have had to deal with police

Matt Douhan
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    Right... so one has to simply accept that in China you will have to spend hours in a police station from time to time when 'the biggest bank in the world' decides you are one of today's lucky winners. In other countries they don't have this system: The banks rip you off in many other ways, but not with simple ATM reprogramming fraud. Unfortunately I can't front up to a police station in Beijing to fix my problem as I don't live there. – theonetruepath Jan 10 '20 at 02:37
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    @theonetruepath I am not defending the system nor endorsing it, I am just advising how to fix it which of course is not trivial for you since you already left. – Matt Douhan Jan 10 '20 at 02:40
  • @NateEldredge yes meant to read local cards – Matt Douhan Jan 10 '20 at 03:09
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    It would actually be physically impossible for the machine to disperse money from a different slot for specific cards. Mainly because there are only as many slots as bank note denominations. – winternight Jan 10 '20 at 12:15
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    @winternight No that is not true, in China there are two slots for each denomination, one for incoming money and one for outgoing, if you controlled the ATM you could choose of course from which slot to disperse the money based on whatever rule you set up. – Matt Douhan Jan 10 '20 at 12:31
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    @MattDouhan fair enough. I was not aware that all ATMs in China have incoming money feature. But you would have to put your counterfeit notes in the outgoing slot and use that slot only for foreign cards. Depending on the location of the ATM (more tourists vs. more locals) this would be difficult to manage, though, granted, not impossible. Still, exceedingly unlikely. – winternight Jan 10 '20 at 13:39
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    @winternight extremely unlikely to the point where I think its impossible – Matt Douhan Jan 10 '20 at 14:39
  • @MattDouhan - Sorry but you are not correct. An ATM has just a general container for notes that are deposited which can not be used to dispense. Each dispensing cassette has a single denomination. If the person loading the cassettes is substituting some of the notes with fakes, they stand to make a lot of money, but potentially risk the death penalty if they are caught. – Paul Smith Jan 11 '20 at 17:43
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    @PaulSmith the ATM machines currently in our lab do not agree with your statement – Matt Douhan Jan 11 '20 at 19:32
  • @MattDouhan - 1/2 Interesting lab you have there. None of the ATMs that I have worked with (NCR, IBM and Siemens) had the ability to determine the authenticity of deposited notes. Most of them don't even have an opacity sensor on the deposit slot let alone the ability to distinguish denominations. If you have knowledge of recycling ATMS and the risks associated, then please explain why you would use them in the field "This has happened to me multiple times with local cards as well...". – Paul Smith Jan 12 '20 at 22:33
  • @MattDouhan - 2/2 Do you really think the fraudulent currency is entering the system by depositors putting fake currency into their own accounts at ATMs that recycle? Seems a little unlikely since most banks confiscate fake currency, and not only do they not compensate you, they report you to the police for attempting to pass it. – Paul Smith Jan 12 '20 at 22:36
  • @PaulSmith I doubt thats the case, I was simply saying it could be done if you controlled the ATM machine and its software. – Matt Douhan Jan 12 '20 at 22:37
  • @MattDouhan If you have access to someone else's ATM you use it to do fake withdrawals of real money, you do not add an additional expensive dispenser filled with fake money (and dripping with evidence!) and you do not deposit fake money in real ATMs in the hope that tourists will withdraw it all before the bank and the police find out who deposited it. – Paul Smith Jan 12 '20 at 22:45
  • @PaulSmith Thats not what I said, I said it could be done if you controlled the ATM, I didnt say it was a good idea, or smart I simply said it could be done in reply to the comment saying it could not be done. – Matt Douhan Jan 12 '20 at 23:11
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You said you used an credit card for this. Call the credit card issuer and ask to file a dispute. They will probably ask you what you've tried to resolve the dispute yourself, so be prepared to tell them about your unsuccessful attempt at involving the police.

Cody
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