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Is there an explanation for the absence of any sign that would demonstrate the eight retro rockets in the image below were really working? It seems that no gas was getting out of the nozzles.

enter image description here

The sky crane of Perseverance rover with the engines apparently stopped

Stian
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azot
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4 Answers4

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If you watch the coverage on YouTube, they explain hydrazine rockets burn clear. This is supported by the dust flying everywhere when it gets closer to the ground.​

Glorfindel
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necroncryptek
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    Is there a video on the net showing hydrazine rocket engines, other than those of Perseverance, burning perfectly clear. In general, even if an object, or jet of gas, is transparent you still see it because its refraction coefficient is different from that of the air. – azot Feb 23 '21 at 09:25
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    @azot - The physics of rocket thrusters means that you want the pressure of the exhaust to be close to ambient, and the temperature to be low for maximum energy extraction (some vacuum thruster operations are visible because the exhaust condenses). Given the Martian atmosphere is pretty close to a vacuum anyway an interesting question what the actual pressure and temperature actually was. – GremlinWranger Feb 23 '21 at 09:40
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    they claimed that they had test footage on earth that showed the same thing but i haven't seen it. They explained people were curious why animators made plumes coming from the rockets during simulations showing people what it would look like, when both on earth and mars its clear. It was just a mix up and something that wasn't communicated. – necroncryptek Feb 23 '21 at 09:42
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    @azot starting writing my own question on plume temperature and then found https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274623278_Thruster_Plume_Surface_Interactions_Applications_for_Spacecraft_Landings_on_Planetary_Bodies which gives an exit temperature for MSL, original name for Curiosity of 202 Kelvin, well below freezing but still balmy for mars, pressure seems to be four to five Martain atmospheres. Does explain why the rover hanging under the sky crane does not get singed. – GremlinWranger Feb 23 '21 at 09:48
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    I think Matt Walace also mentions that if you look closely at the rim of the nozzle, you can see a faint pink glow that indicates its burning. Other than that, yes the exhaust is quite clear and now that we have seen it, the animations will follow suit. Exhaust-plume interaction was interesting to look at and that is certainly nobody could have guessed beforehand. – OrangeDurito Feb 23 '21 at 10:08
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    @azot The exhaust from Proton rockets with much bigger and more powerful engines can be nearly invisible at times. How would you expect to see shimmer/distortion from refraction with such a uniform background? – Christopher James Huff Feb 23 '21 at 16:09
  • @ChristopherJamesHuff , Watch this video: "Russian Proton-M launch with Spektr-RG X-ray Observatory satellite (7/13/2019)" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfHH6oX1VQg). The exhaust plume of the engines is visible all the time. – azot Feb 23 '21 at 23:06
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    @azot so what? A single video where the exhaust was visible is hardly evidence that the exhaust will always be visible. The visibility depends on viewing angle, sun angle, weather, etc. And even in that video, that cluster of much-larger engines produces a plume that has very little contrast against the background, the exhaust of the individual engines being very nearly invisible shortly after liftoff, with any refraction having little visible effect. – Christopher James Huff Feb 24 '21 at 01:16
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    @azot this answer explains that these are hydrazine monopropellant thrusters, you can't compare them to a launch vehicle's engines; way different size and scale and power, and totally different chemical mechanisms. Here's an old, strange video, they have to dim the lights and use a black background to see anything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DqtWjZOVfY In the engine it decompose(s) into ammonia, nitrogen gas, and hydrogen gas and that gas escapes the nozzle. There's no flame. – uhoh Feb 24 '21 at 04:34
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    @azot Note that hydrazine decomposition is often visible on earth because the exhaust is mostly a hot plume of nitrogen gas and hydrogen gas. While they are both invisible gasses, as soon as the hot hydrogen mixes with atmospheric oxygen, it tends to catch fire and burn with a dim orange flame. On Mars, the atmosphere is carbon dioxide, so the hydrogen can't burn. – Darth Pseudonym Feb 25 '21 at 19:25
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It would be rather surprising if the exhaust from these engines was visible. The engines use hydrazine ($\mathrm{N_2 H_4}$) monopropellant, and the reactions involved (catalysed by iridium) are

$$ \begin{aligned} \mathrm{N_2 H_4} &\rightarrow \mathrm{N_2 + 2H_2} &&\text{exothermic}\\ \mathrm{3N_2 H_4} &\rightarrow \mathrm{4NH_3 + N_2} &&\text{very exothermic, $\mathrm{NH_3}$ is ammonia}\\ \mathrm{4NH_3 + N_2H_4} &\rightarrow\mathrm{3N_2 + 8H_2} &&\text{endothermic, makes more gas} \end{aligned} $$

So there are two important things here: firstly these reactions are catalysed: hydrazine decomposes like this only in the presence of an iridium catalyst; and secondly the products of these reactions are colourless gases: hydrogen, and nitrogen, probably some ammonia and probably some unconsumed hydrazine.

We also know, from this paper (that copy wants you to pay for it, but there is a free copy here), that the exit temperature for MSL (aka Curiosity, same landing system presumably slightly lower thrust though), is about $217\,\mathrm{K}$. That's $-56^{\circ}\mathrm{C}$. If you put your hand in the plume you're going to freeze (and probably have all the skin removed from it since the exit velocity is extremely supersonic). In fact I think that the plume temperature is lower than the ambient temperature at the time of landing.

The reason it's cold is some combination of the last, endothermic, reaction, and the adiabatic expansion of the gases as they leave the engine, I think.

So we can put all of this together:

(1) The reactions take place in the presence of an iridium catalyst, which is inside the engines. This means in particular that all of the exothermic reactions are taking place inside the engine (and presumably a lot of the heat produces is then going to drive the endothermic reactions). And, indeed, parts of the engines get very hot and you can see this. The exhaust products are not still reacting because they're not near the catalyst any more.

(2) The reaction products are colourless gases. There's no soot or other awful crud from partial combustion as you get with, say, kerosene rocket engines. There may be some small amount of crud which has come from the inside of the engine, but if the engines are working well this will be a tiny amount of material.

(3) The exhaust plume is cold: tens of degrees below the freezing point of water.

So what you are looking at is a plume of colourless gases at a temperature somewhat below ambient. And, not surprisingly, you can't see it.

In fact, I'd expect that the best chance of seeing the plumes would be to see any residual ammonia and hydrazine condensing in them. I presume that the engines burn cleanly enough that not enough of these is getting into the plume to be visible.

One interesting thing is that I would expect that, on Earth, plumes from these engines probably would be visible. I'd expect this because a plume of very cold gas would rapidly mix with the air, and a lot of water vapour in the air would condense out in the now-much-colder mixture. So you'd get 'vapour trails' – plumes of, not water vapour, but an aerosol condensed from water vapour, or in other words fog. This doesn't happen on Mars because the atmosphere is extremely dry compared to Earth's.


As a note: this question is clearly at least tangentially related to yet another 'we didn't go to x' conspiracy theory. How likely does it seem that, if people were to stage such an imagined conspiracy, they would forget to put the nice bright rocket plumes on their faked footage? Because, to me, it seems not likely at all.

  • What you say seems logical but I have a counterexample. The hydrogen peroxide rocket engine which decomposes H2O2 in O2 and H2O (both of them transparent gases), in the presence of a catalyst, leaves behind a quite visible white plume. Just because the oxygen and water as a gas are both transparent, it does not mean they will not be visible while getting out of the nozzle of a rocket engine. – azot Feb 24 '21 at 19:23
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    @azot: I think you may be confusing Mars with Venus? On Venus (at least in the lower atmosphere) $\mathrm{H_2O}$ is a colourless gas. On Mars, and indeed on the planet I come from it is not always. Indeed when I look up I see enormous white masses in the sky which are made from $\mathrm{H_2O}$. Indeed I talked about just this possibility of materials condensing in the plumes in my answer. Even on Mars, $\mathrm{H_2}$ and $\mathrm{N_2}$ will not condense however. –  Feb 24 '21 at 21:03
  • If the exit temperature of the gases getting out of the nozzles of Perseverance was known to be below -50 C, or so, why did they make an animation (for presentation purposes) showing white hot flames with red hot tails getting out of the nozzles? The rest of the animation is quite realistic and looks strikingly similar to the actual landing including the landscape below the rover (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzmd7RouGrM) – azot Feb 25 '21 at 03:10
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    @azot Because it's an animation; an artist's impression. It's not a physically accurate animation. Many artistic depictions of the Apollo ascent stage showed bright engines flames, but in reality, the exhaust was basically transparent. – Star Man Feb 25 '21 at 04:45
  • You'd think the artist and a rocket scientist would discuss what actually would happen. Though they'd then need captions / voice-over on the animation to indicate when the rockets are firing, and why they are invisible – CSM Feb 25 '21 at 09:49
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    @azot: I have no idea: that's a question to ask the animators. What we know is that hydrazine monopropellant engines have clear, cold exhaust plumes. –  Feb 25 '21 at 09:50
  • @azot peroxide decomposition doesn't necessarily leave a white plume, just as airplane jets doesn't necessarily leave a white stripe. – Stian Feb 25 '21 at 10:41
  • @azot You realize that the animators are probably either graphic artists or script kiddies (or both) and not engineers or physicists, right? And that when given an assignment to animate a graphic of rockets...your average graphic artist or animator is going to put in visible exhaust, because that's what an average person sees in their mind's eye when they think of a rocket? – tbrookside Feb 25 '21 at 12:57
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    @tbrookside: I suspect that the people doing the animation knew (or knew who to ask, and asked). I also suspect that they knew that if they didn't put in Dramatic Flamy Rockets (TM) they knew that conspiracy theorists would have a field day. Sadly it was not possible to add DFRs to the real thing, or I'm sure they would have. –  Feb 25 '21 at 13:09
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    @azot This was answered in the press conference. The animation looked weird without visible plumes, so they added those as artistic license (although they went a bit overboard with the effect, IMO). This is simply a case of Reality is Unrealistic (insert standard TVTropes memetic hazard warning). – JohannesD Feb 25 '21 at 14:21
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    "why did they make an animation (for presentation purposes) showing white hot flames with red hot tails getting out of the nozzles?" For the same reason they added dramatic music. – ceejayoz Feb 25 '21 at 21:28
  • @ceejayoz wait, the music didn't actually play on Mars? :-) How did NASA's Deep Space Network encode and broadcast music to Opportunity? – uhoh Feb 26 '21 at 00:17
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    "How likely does it seem that [...] they would forget to put the nice bright rocket plumes on their faked footage?" Because they done goofed when they faked the Apollo ascent stage video, and now they have to continue this ridicule myth of transparent exhaust to stay consistent (just kidding, of course ) – armand Feb 26 '21 at 05:49
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    What I'm finding most amazing here is that a hydrazine thruster is essentially a real-life frost gun. With fierce recoil, no less. – SF. Mar 02 '21 at 11:37
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    @SF Clearly you are not up to date on supervillain weapons: the standard approach is to have your hydrazine freeze gun mounted back-to-back with a conventional jet-of-fiery-goodness engine with matched thrust. The resulting device will both freeze your opponent, crisp the other opponent behind you and emit a very satisfactory torrent of flame. These are available at very reasonable prices from any supervillain supply company. Avoid the cheap knockoffs: they often do not ensure that the two engines are matched, especially on cutoff with the resultant dramatic ejection of the user. –  Mar 02 '21 at 11:56
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If you look very closely at the video you'll find that the top-right engine is glowing red inside because, while hydrazine burns clear, the engine chamber is still 1000 °C hot.

This has been explained also by Scott Manley on Youtube where you can see the footage:

GACy20
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  • That engine could be glowing red or its color could be influenced by the general magenta hue of the image. – azot Feb 24 '21 at 08:36
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    @azot I don't think so. If it was the hue of the image you'd see both top-right engines glow, not just one (they are basically in the same orientation respective to the camera, they receive the same light from the surroundings), and I believe during hover only 4 engines are lit. Also it's not magenta at all, is red-hot. There are other dark spots right around there but they do not show the "magenta hue of the image" which you'd expect if that color was just the "hue of the image". Finally the location is consistent with the hottest parts of the engine. – GACy20 Feb 24 '21 at 09:17
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@armand's comment:

You can compare with the footage of the Apollo lunar module ascent stage departure: the engine produces no visible flame

Indeed! Here is a screenshot from the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum video "Apollo 17 Liftoff from Moon - December 14, 1972", found in How did NASA get the video camera on the Moon to track the LM ascent stage, considering the substantial delay? See also the excellent answers to Exit film of moon landing departure and this version of the video found in Gizmodo's How NASA Captured This Iconic Footage Of Apollo 17 Leaving The Moon

Apollo 17 Liftoff from Moon - December 14, 1972

uhoh
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  • The documentary "Astronauts Gone Wild" (2004) by Bart Sibrel, (see: https://archive.org/details/AstronautsGoneWild) convinced me that the Moon manned missions were not real. The technology necessary for putting people on the Moon and bringing them back to Earth does not exist. – azot Mar 02 '21 at 18:30
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    @azot https://space.stackexchange.com/q/28172/6944 – Organic Marble Mar 02 '21 at 23:28
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    @azot Look into the issue more deeply. In fact, it's the technology necessary for faking the Apollo missions that we don't have. Run into the arms of con men just to fancy yourself as "not a sheeple"... That's so sad, man. – armand Mar 03 '21 at 00:52
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    @azot yeah, but how do you fake the radio transmissions that were not encrypted and closely monitored by the whole socialist block ? How do you fake the mirrors and other measuring instruments that were left there ? How do you fake the pictures taken of the various descent modules by competitor space agencies with strong incentives to debunk an american hoax ? How do you fake the trajectories of dust grains moved by Apollo members walking on camera, which match free fall under moon gravity but impossible to reproduce on Earth ? Don't just cherry pick only what favors your conclusion. Sad. – armand Mar 03 '21 at 03:16
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    Didn't know this movie. Now I wanna watch it, thanks. But if this is your standard for "credible" I understand why you believe a lot of bad theories... – armand Mar 03 '21 at 03:21
  • @armand , I am not aware of any country, in the group you mentioned, that received direct transmissions from the Moon from an Apollo mission. Also, I am not aware of any lunar orbiter, other than those sent by the US, that photographed the landing sites of Apollo probes. – azot Mar 03 '21 at 04:07
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    @azot of course they didn't get any direct communication (nice dodge). But the radio transmissions were clear and not aimed at any point on earth, so raising an antenna anywhere was enough to monitor the missions. With several antenna you could track their location, which was done by all sorts of people. The Chinese spotted the remnants of Apollo. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_evidence_for_Apollo_Moon_landings At that point, it's just simpler to just send people on the Moon than to fake it. – armand Mar 03 '21 at 05:27
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    @armand hoaxers live for this kind of exchange; they remain elusively close to seeming convincable and/or redeemable, but then lead you on to the next "mystery" and one after that ad nauseam. It's a game and you are the toy. This is the nature of trolling. – uhoh Mar 03 '21 at 06:43
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    As I see it, it's my game, and he is the toy but now I'm bored. – armand Mar 03 '21 at 07:17