Rockets always seem to launch slower than I expect them for the thrust they can produce. Do they really launch off the pad at maximum thrust? Or do they launch at lower thrust until they clear the tower? I'm always surprised when I see how slow they seem to budge from the pad. I know they're massive, but still.
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2Curious if Shuttle launches also seem slow to you; they always looked like they got off the pad fast to me. – DylanSp Jan 10 '21 at 16:54
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1Shuttle's acceleration off the pad was significantly higher than some -- initial TWR was around 1.4:1 IIRC, as compared with 1.2:1 for many other launchers, so the initial acceleration would appear twice as fast as something like a Saturn V. – Russell Borogove Jan 10 '21 at 17:05
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What are Launch Clamps? – YouTube. Other than the obvious, they prevent it from ever not being at full thrust prior to liftoff. – Mazura Jan 10 '21 at 18:14
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In KSP with MechJeb (not that you need to w/o an engine mod where they don't immediately develop full thrust) you stage the clamps after ignition and there's a noticeable pause, just like the real thing. – Mazura Jan 10 '21 at 18:23
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Good question - I've also wondered this. The shuttle particularly always seemed to me to start off so slowly that it was almost hovering for the first couple of seconds. – stripybadger Jan 11 '21 at 08:02
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2IIRC, for the US launches, the paradigm is "release clamps / bolts once nominal thrust is reached" - usually 100%. For Russian launches, the rocket is released and starts climbing as soon as TWR exceeds 1, and it takes a moment until the power ramps up to maximum. – SF. Jan 11 '21 at 12:58
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3You're probably used to small rockets like sounding rockets (VSB-30, etc) where the TWR can get up to 100:1, so they take off like a bat out of hell (10-100g acceleration) with short burns of 10-20 seconds. They're already starting a second stage burn before something like Atlas or Dragon even clears the tower. As rockets get larger, maintaining such a TWR is not practical. – J... Jan 11 '21 at 16:07
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Even within rocket families there can be a lot of variation in how fast they clear the tower. For example, this Atlas 551 configuration practically leaps off the pad compared to this Atlas 501 configuration with no solid rockets, despite the 551 carrying much higher payload. – Dan A. Jan 11 '21 at 17:27
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@DylanSp - Agreed, when those SRBs ignite, its like the shuttle takes off, like a, well... rocket! If you want to see a slow lift-off, watch Apollo. – Glen Yates Jan 11 '21 at 17:37
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I was under the impression that rockets also do not use full throttle until after they reach some
altitude to avoid friction and drag from the atmosphere? Is this true - do they launch at full throttle, then throttle down until said altitude is reached? – Rodney P. Barbati Jan 11 '21 at 21:06 -
1@RodneyP.Barbati: If you're gonna do that it's better to go full throttle ASAP and throttle down on reaching Mach 1. You want to fly not hover. – Joshua Jan 11 '21 at 23:23
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@Joshua That's exactly the process I use in KSP! – Ben Jan 12 '21 at 00:13
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Why are Falcon 9 main engines throttled down and up shortly after launch? - it's called throttling back for max q. - In KSP with MJ, it's in utilities: limit dynamic pressure to [#] but you need to know How to find Max Q using Mechjeb? to fill in the blank. (Reddit) – Mazura Jan 12 '21 at 04:50
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@RodneyP.Barbati You want to get as fast to possible to maximum stable speed, and then hold there (or rather, accelerate more slowly, since the maximum stable speed increases as you gain altitude, and you just need to match that). Otherwise you're wasting lots of fuel - just imagine the extreme case of thrusting at exactly g right from launch - you're spending loads of fuel, but not getting anywhere. – Luaan Jan 12 '21 at 13:36
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1Spacecraft seem to launch slower than they do because they seem smaller than they actually are, and they are huge. Acceleration of a Saturn or a Shuttle measured in lengths/s2 and speed measured in lengths/s in the first seconds is tiny compared to whatever we are used to - from motorcycles to dogs. – Pere Jan 12 '21 at 14:26
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1Regarding toy rockets - things don't necessarily scale. The same acceleration that a plastic toy can handle with ease woould disintegrate a full-sized machine. Watch the antics of RC helicopters for a good demo of this - they can do things that no full-sized machine can even approach. – Pete Danes Jan 12 '21 at 13:47
3 Answers
Rockets always seem to launch slower than I expect them for the thrust they can produce. Do they really launch off the pad at maximum thrust?
In most cases, yes.
For most orbital launchers, over 90% of the mass at liftoff consists of propellant. As the propellant is burned and exhausted, the mass rapidly decreases, and the rate of acceleration increases in inverse proportion. In fact, if the thrust remains constant, acceleration would become far too high over the course of an ascent from the surface to Earth orbit. Staging manages this by dropping the big first-stage engines (and empty tankage) and switching to a smaller set of engines. Some launchers shut down (e.g. Saturn IB, Saturn V) or throttle down (e.g. Falcon 9, STS) engines to limit acceleration as well.
The performance (in terms of payload to a given orbit) increases as propellant load increases, so typical launchers have a liftoff thrust-to-weight ratio in the 1.2-1.4:1 range, yielding just enough acceleration to safely clear the tower.
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Thanks Russel. Do you happen to know how many seconds it takes a typical rocket to clear the launch tower (or a height equal to the rocket's length)? I'm wondering if it's just perception that's leading me astray. The time to clear the tower would give me some standard to refer to. Thanks! – Jan 10 '21 at 04:20
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2Not off the top of my head other than generally around 10 seconds; there are many videos of launches available on YouTube. – Russell Borogove Jan 10 '21 at 04:25
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8Worth pointing out the shuttle has throttled down to about 70% by the time it reaches main engine cutoff. This is because as the launch progresses, the vehicle gets lighter and lighter, so to prevent excessive g forces is gradually reduces thrust – Innovine Jan 10 '21 at 12:22
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"For most orbital launchers" -- Out of curiosity, are you aware of any real-life exceptions? (I'm not criticizing your choice of language either way; this figure is presumably classified for some orbital launchers, so it's unlikely anyone could know for sure that the statement holds for all orbital launchers.) – Charles Staats Jan 10 '21 at 13:56
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9@CharlesStaats No, I was just hedging in case someone pulled an 89% propellant fraction example out of their back pocket. – Russell Borogove Jan 10 '21 at 15:46
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7Accelerating at 0.2 g is about 2 m/sec^2. The height after t seconds is nicely t^2 meters. To clear a 100m tower takes 10 seconds. – Ross Millikan Jan 10 '21 at 16:06
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@RussellBorogove It might be insightful to address the case of the space shuttle, where the engines run up to 104% for some portion of their burn. It's clear why they throttle back to reduce stresses surrounding max Q, but how the 104% relates to lift-off thrust and if/why thrust would be higher at altitude than at lift-off. – Anthony X Jan 10 '21 at 17:31
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@AnthonyX I'd prefer to keep this answer simple and general; a number of other QAs on the site address the shuttle's throttle schedule. – Russell Borogove Jan 10 '21 at 19:10
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3@Alex I suspect what's tripping you is that rockets are really really big, and their acceleration profile is very different from the objects you're familiar with - their initial acceleration appears relatively slow, but unlike a car, it just keeps accelerating faster and faster (until it runs out or is throttled down). – Luaan Jan 12 '21 at 13:47
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2Look what I found in my back pocket! (if the numbers presented are to be trusted) – SE - stop firing the good guys Jan 12 '21 at 15:50
As in many things, shuttle was an exception, the answer for it is No.
At liftoff the Space Shuttle Main Engines were running at a throttle setting of 100% of their rated power level. About 4 seconds after liftoff they throttled up to 104.5%. The maximum emergency throttle setting was 109%, but this was never used in flight.
Screenshot from a Shuttle Mission Simulator run showing the commands from T-4 through the thrust bucket.
(the commands at 1:22 are a response to a failure inserted into the sim run)
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2A pettier man than I would argue that 100% RPL is "full thrust" as per the question title, but the body of the question indeed asks about "maximum thrust", so you win a +1. – Russell Borogove Jan 11 '21 at 18:36
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4@RussellBorogove only a pettifogging pedant would point that that 109% was called Full Power Level – Organic Marble Jan 11 '21 at 18:45
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I'm always surprised when I see how slow they seem to budge from the pad. I know they're massive, but still.
Remember that when you are in the vehicle, what you feel is acceleration, not speed, but when you are outside looking at it, what you see is mostly speed, not acceleration.
Speed obviously starts at 0, and is the the result of the integration of acceleration.
Based on thrust-to-weight ratios of 1.2 to 1.4, this results in a net acceleration of $0.2g$ to $0.4g$. Let's consider the $0.2g$ case.
Speed will then be $v=0.2g.t$. After 1 second, speed will be less than $2m/s$, about $7 km/h$. That definitely looks very slow.
But that increases linearly (if we ignore the fuel burn, for now), so 10 seconds later it reaches $70 km/h$ and a minute later it's about $420 km/h$. Starts to look a bit faster, but the rocket will have cleared the tower for quite a while already.
We can actually compute at what point the tower is cleared: the height of the rocket is another integration of speed, so $h=0.1g.t^{2}$ and $t=\sqrt{10h/g}$. For a tower height of $100 m$, the tower is cleared at about $t=10 s$ (Saturn V cleared the tower at about 12 seconds).
So 10 to 12 seconds to clear 100 m, that indeed looks very slow. But that's only the beginning, and as speed increases at least linearly with time, minutes later the rocket reaches thousands of $km/h$.
Even better, as the rocket is burning fuel, its mass reduces, while the thrust could remain constant, so the thrust-to-weight ratio and the acceleration increase. In the case of Saturn V, 135 seconds after lift-off, total acceleration (including gravity) had already increased from the initial $1.2g$ to $4g$, and it was actually capped at $4g$ by stopping one of the engines. Add to that the fact that the rocket will switch from vertical (where gravity is deducted from thrust) to nearly horizontal (where it isn't), and you moved from $0.2g$ net acceleration to $4g$ in a bit over 2 minutes!
So, all in all, a lot of thrust, but a lot of weight, so a net acceleration which is initially relatively modest, which explains the pretty "slow" lift-off.
For comparison, if we took the same Saturn V first stage, but without the upper stages, and with only 10% of its fuel capacity, we would have a thrust-to-weight ratio of about 10, so net acceleration would be $9g$, and it would clear the 100 m tower in 1.5 seconds, at which point it would already have a speed over $450 km/h$! Of course, it wouldn't go very far after that, as it would run out of propellant in less than 15 seconds...
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14To add another interesting number, the Saturn V first stage burns for about 150 seconds, so just clearing the tower takes almost 7% of the first stage propellant. – J... Jan 11 '21 at 16:27
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@JoeJobs What kind of “small rocket” are you thinking about? Different rockets with different mission profiles (payload, orbit...) may have very different requirements and different thrust to weight ratios. – jcaron Jan 11 '21 at 20:34
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I mean those sounding and amateur rockets that take off very quick. I wish I can see a big rocket taking off very fast – Joe Jobs Jan 11 '21 at 21:16
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4@JoeJobs Amateur rockets get nowhere near the altitude or speed required to put a satellite in orbit or send a spacecraft to outer space. So they need a lot less propellant (they usually burn for a very short time), and can have a very high thrust to weight ratio. See the example in the last paragraph: same thrust, less weight, much much quicker take off. – jcaron Jan 11 '21 at 21:46
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So if Falcon 9 would only go only 2 km high then it would take off much faster. Would be an amazing view! – Joe Jobs Jan 11 '21 at 22:40
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1@JoeJobs ... except that it would probably break from an acceleration that high. – fraxinus Jan 12 '21 at 07:05
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@JoeJobs The same is true of short-range missiles, of course, and the trick is the same - their payload is very low, and their range and/or delta-V too. Every rocket vehicle has to fight the same thing - increasing your speed takes a huge amount of fuel and propellant, so unless you get ridiculously high exhaust velocities and ridiculously high fuel energy density, your maximum thrust increases tremendously as you spend the fuel and propellant. Staging just makes this even more ridiculous - it means you can reach huge fuel-to-payload ratios, but that also means lots of extra mass. – Luaan Jan 12 '21 at 13:55
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2@JoeJobs If Falcon 9 took off with 40:1 TWR all the satellites and crew inside would be broken or dead. – J... Jan 12 '21 at 15:33
