-2

Wikipedia:

Downrange is the horizontal distance traveled by a spacecraft, or the spacecraft's horizontal distance from the launch site.

Spacecraft don't travel horizontally. I don't even know how the word "horizontal" and the word "spacecraft" can exist in the same sentence. Maybe the word "projected" would be helpful here?

Space Exploration Stackexchange:

This is simply the distance across the ground from the launch site.

This is the accepted and highly upvoted answer. If I had to write an equation from this explanation, or interpret what 500km downrange means, I'd be hard pressed. It's a great answer to get the general idea, but a bit wanting from a mathematical or orbital-mechanical perspective.


Is there an official or generally accepted, precise definition for how one would calculate downrange distance? I can imagine if I have an orbital plane, then downrange and altitude might be referenced to a sphere or an ellipsoid (Earth surface model) and thereby could be could have been used to define a position fairly precisely. Does such a definition exist?

To better illustrate why the question is not trivial, let's abstract the mathematics out of history temporarily. Imagine you would like to, or have been asked to calculate a down range distance. What is the first question you might ask yourself:

"If I have ECI coordinates of a launch site and a spacecraft, how would I calculate the downrange distance correctly? What model should I use for the Earth's surface? Or should I project along a sphere with the same altitude as the launch site?"


I'm looking for an authoritative answer, not what it probably means or could or might mean, how to "think about it as...", or "it doesn't matter" — it has certainly been relevant historically. Thanks!


EDIT: To elaborate on the previous sentence defining the scope of the question, a look at NASA's 254 page Apollo 11 Press Kit will show a dozen numerical downrange values with single digit nautical mile precision, (and one with decimal precision). To get a large downrange value to 1 nautical mile precision, one needs to choose a specific model for the shape of the Earth, at least sphere or ellipse.

uhoh
  • 148,791
  • 53
  • 476
  • 1,473
  • @RoryAlsop I'll encourage you to read my question again, and carefully. The answers to your questions are there, except "why do you want to" be cause that's irrelevant. It was done regularly, and done with precision. That's a fact. I am just asking for the math. Why not give it a few days and wait to see what answers may be posted by others. – uhoh Apr 29 '17 at 07:39
  • @RoryAlsop I took some time and care to write the question, to make it clear I was after something specific. I did not ask the question "Is downrange distance really meaningful?" I asked "What precisely is downrange distance - how is it defined mathematically?" Those are both good questions, but I chose to ask the latter. I suppose that former is still available. If you look you'll see I ask a mix of both soft and hard questions. This one is tightly constrained on purpose. – uhoh Apr 29 '17 at 08:02
  • @RoryAlsop Here's a good example of what seems like a common sense slam-dunk is actually worth asking and waiting for good answers: In “spacecraft talk” is nadir just a fancy word for “down”?. – uhoh Apr 29 '17 at 08:10
  • @Spaceflight is all about the edge cases. What is wrong with exploring the edge cases? I am sorry but I do not see "rude" there at all. I see pointing out issues with the answer, and challenging aspects of the answer. I don't think you should be talking about me disliking, being insistent, or seeming insistent. I'm just trying to get an answer to the question as asked, not a different question. – uhoh Apr 29 '17 at 08:18
  • 1
    well - I do see it as rude. I'm away. – Rory Alsop Apr 29 '17 at 08:19
  • Using the local direction of earth's gravity to project a point from the spacecraft to the surface of earth, that is an easy and precise definition. If there is ground below instead of sea, the geodetic sea level should be used instead of the surface to measure downrange distance. – Uwe Apr 29 '17 at 14:38
  • @Uwe Local gravity is pretty lumpy and it does not point towards the center of the Earth very often. I'd guess the answer to my question would refer to a sphere or a standard ellipsoid as I've mentioned, like the zero-elevation surface used for GPS. I'm asking what was actually used, not for suggestions for options that could be used. – uhoh Apr 29 '17 at 14:52
  • Your comment says you are asking "what was actually used". The question says "If I have ECI coordinates of a launch site and a spacecraft, how would I calculate the downrange distance correctly? " Those are different questions IMHO. If you want to know the answer to the historical question "what was actually used", tell us by who and when. Since downrange distance is only important to PAO, I doubt it is very standard or accurate, and probably changed as Earth models did. So, what is your actual question? I suspect you know the answer to the first, maybe not the historical one. – Organic Marble Apr 29 '17 at 17:05
  • @OrganicMarble Except for the single occurrence of the word "I", the question asks how it is done or has been done. The "I" was used to illustrate that the choice of surface is important, and one has to choose a surface. I could have just as easily written "If one has... how would one...". By highlighting this step, I'm establishing that it's not obvious how to do this, and that a definition would need to include it. I've adjusted the wording to make it clearer that I was describing the problem, and the usage if "I" is incidental, not primary to the question. – uhoh Apr 29 '17 at 17:54
  • @OrganicMarble Who and when might be for example NASA in 1969 as illustrated in the example given at the end of the quetion. The actual question is "What precisely is downrange distance - how is it defined mathematically?" as stated in the title. I don't have access to many spaceflight books, nor know where to find "the good stuff" on the internet, but might it not be possible that this has been worked out somewhere in a text, or historical document? I've asked here because some others here may have better access to those things than I do. – uhoh Apr 29 '17 at 17:59
  • @OrganicMarble yes "I" appears more than once, but mostly I'm explaining what it is that I don't know, so for example "If I had to write an equation from this explanation... I'd be hard pressed." is part of the background. I've used the word "I" twice, but I don't think it bifurcates the question or creates ambiguity. – uhoh Apr 29 '17 at 18:03
  • @OrganicMarble so instead of a "this is a question that must not be asked" approach, an excellent negative answer might be of the form "I looked in the classic texts X and Y and NASA manual Z, and there are no definitions of downrange distance to be found. Combining that with personal experience, I fear that it's likely no standard definition in widespread use is likely to exist." – uhoh Apr 29 '17 at 18:13
  • @OrganicMarble Wouldn't that be better than a comment telling me that my question is irrelevant? (original source is no longer visible) And that of course would in the unexpected scenario where one can not be found. – uhoh Apr 29 '17 at 18:18
  • "To get a large downrange value to 1 nautical mile precision, one needs to choose a specific model for the shape of the Earth, at least sphere or ellipse." - not necessarily. One can choose to write down as many decimal places out of a readout or a calculation, with complete disregard for accuracy of the readout or calculation. Which is pointless and a poor practice, but far from uncommon. My bicycle odometer says I rode 353km and 742.5m since I reset it last. It has about 5% measurement error, so it's +/-17km, but there, I gave you the distance to a tenth of a meter! – SF. Apr 30 '17 at 00:40
  • @SF. measurement accuracy is different than mathematical model accuracy. These are two totally separate things. – uhoh Apr 30 '17 at 01:10
  • Writing numerical downrange values with single digit nautical mile precision, (and one with decimal precision) does not imply all digits are valid and precision is smaller than the last digit. – Uwe Apr 30 '17 at 11:06
  • @Uwe There is context here. People who care about the quality of their work will try to make sure their math is good enough to match the number of digits reported. It's not proof, but it suggests care was taken. Considering the attitude towards science and engineering at NASA in the 1960's and 1970s (and any time actually) I'm saying there's a good chance that there is good math. In this case, in this context, to me, it definitely suggests. I don't see the word "implies" up there. – uhoh Apr 30 '17 at 12:09
  • 1
    @uhoh: Compare with neighboring data and actual results. "Apollo 11 will enter the Earth's atmosphere (400,000 feet) at 195 hours and five minutes after launch at 36,194 feet per second. Command module touchdown will be 1285 nautical miles downrange from entry at 10.6 degrees north latitude by 172.4 west longitude at 195 hours, 19 minutes after Earth launch 12:46 p.m." - reentry speed down to 1fps, location down to 0.1 degree and time down to 1 minute, after over a week. Actual splashdown was 13°19′N 169°9′W. I wouldn't trust the other numbers more. – SF. May 01 '17 at 17:19
  • @SF. you are really misconstruing my words and commenting as if I have said something very different than what has been said. I've said that this group of engineers reporting single digit precision numbers suggests (to me) they would be used mathematical definitions of those quantities that are consistent with that precision. This is totally unrelated to what happens in a launch or even if the launch takes place or not. – uhoh May 01 '17 at 18:25
  • @RussellBorogove I've perused several books, poked around the internet, looked in Space Math, in Planet Mileage Calc and asked about downrange distance plots in Flightclub https://i.stack.imgur.com/VtR4q.png and read about the Fischer spheroid of 1960, but despite several near misses I could not find even a peep of serious math wrt shape of the Earth and ground tracks. If you'd consider undeleting your answer, I could finish the comment clean-up and accept. I'm ready to embrace the Gestalt! – uhoh May 17 '17 at 07:13
  • @RussellBorogove - Look, I'm Gestalting! – uhoh May 20 '17 at 06:57
  • This is a good question but not popular and don't understand why it is down voted. I would rewrite it to be simpler with less authoritative. – Muze May 12 '18 at 03:05
  • How would anyone downvote a question regarding a definition? – Everyday Astronaut Mar 16 '19 at 21:08
  • @EverydayAstronaut There was a good answer posted that began "'Downrange distance' is not a mathematical term. It's what the Hacker's Dictionary calls 'tourist information': Information ... that is not immediately useful, but contributes to a ... gestalt of what's going on..." I balked because I was looking for a mathematical definition, everyone balked back at me, answer was deleted (now has 2 re-open votes), balk and balk-back comments were deleted, and what you see are the remains. – uhoh Mar 16 '19 at 23:14
  • @EverydayAstronaut instead of the equation I expected, apparently the correct answer is a variation of There is no spoon. – uhoh Mar 16 '19 at 23:15

2 Answers2

3

The definition would be straightforward: length of arc over Earth surface at sea level (altitude zero sphere, not actual ground), between point of launch, and point directly below ship's nadir (intersection of line connecting craft and Earth center, with altitude zero sphere.)

It doesn't need to be defined even that precisely (use average ground level instead of zero, or use direct straight line distance instead of arc) because it's not used in actual craft guidance - it's a piece of data helpful for ground observation crew, "range safety", recovery crew, reporters/photographers, air traffic control, and so on, and for these purposes accuracy of ~100 meters is perfectly sufficient, and at orbital altitudes it loses about all significance for space launches.

It's pretty important for rocket artillery and short range missile launches though. But that's not a space exploration topic.

If you need to write an equation, being given the coordinates, you normalize the coordinates to the surface (remove the altitude component) and then use whichever distance metric over the surface (as used in aviation, naval navigation, land navigation, artillery balistics) to determine the distance. Which exactly you use doesn't really matter, because, as I mentioned, there is no requirement for this to be precise.

SF.
  • 54,970
  • 12
  • 174
  • 343
  • Yup - this was what Russell said too :-) – Rory Alsop Apr 29 '17 at 23:19
  • Thanks, but I'm after what was done, not suggestions what I should do. Are you sure there was never any standard way? During the Apollo era just for example, each NASA engineer who happened across a situation where a number was needed or requested just made up their own personal method on the spot? No convention? I'm trying to establish if there was a standard way, if an accepted definition existed. – uhoh Apr 30 '17 at 01:16
  • @uhoh: I'm pretty sure there were multiple standards, each per application. Downrange for flight control purposes (airspace clearance) derived directly from aviation standard definition of distance, downrange for short suborbital flights (sounding rockets) following artillery standards, downrange for sea recovery following nautical distance definition. I'm also pretty sure press releases are given what's available on hand from other applications without much thought which "downrange" is given. – SF. May 01 '17 at 16:59
  • @SF. I am not sure what to do with one person's "pretty sure" without any kind of reference or citation or way to verify. At this point it's an opinion, and although a popular one, not a good stackexchange answer. From the beginning I've worked hard to make it clear I'm looking for more than an opinion. " I'm looking for an authoritative answer, not what it probably means or could or might mean, how to 'think about it as...', or 'it doesn't matter' ...". Can you find two references with two definitions to demonstrate there are multiple definitions? – uhoh May 01 '17 at 18:29
  • @uhoh: Instead of "downrange distance", you should be looking up land distance definitions in general. These have good maths behind them, while downrange distance is just a trivial instance of these by fixing one end to the launchpad, and being so trivial, nobody ever bothers dwelling on it. It's like if you were asking "what precisely is the launch site air humidity?" - It's air humidity, as defined by general meteorology, and measured at the launch site. You won't find separate studies or definitions of that. There's a lot on air humidity in general, but this one is a trivial variant. – SF. May 17 '17 at 06:46
  • @SF. thanks but the question is worded carefully to describe what it is that I'm asking. Actually I meant to paste the comment to RB comment under the question, not here, didn't mean to disturb you! I'll move it to where I'd intended. – uhoh May 17 '17 at 07:10
  • @uhoh: Your question is worded pretty carefully, but whichever of available models you chose, you'll get maybe 0.5% difference between the results, and for every single purpose for which downrange distance is ever used, this sort of error is meaningless. Maybe try stating why you desire the downrange distance with such exquisite precision? – SF. May 17 '17 at 07:37
  • @SF. I'm asking how others did it because that's exactly what I want to know. I know how to project on to an ellipsoid, or sphere or geoid, that is not hard, it's just math. I'm interested in the choices others have made. It looks like you may think that I'm asking a "how to" question, but I'm asking "how is" and "how did". Here is what one of my "how to" questions looks like: https://space.stackexchange.com/q/20590/12102 note that it begins with the words "How to"! – uhoh May 17 '17 at 08:01
  • @uhoh: Then it makes this a pretty difficult question - because one would need to reach these who did it - because nobody thought it important enough to bother to make it into a standarized procedure. – SF. May 17 '17 at 08:38
  • @SF. What would be the point of asking an easy question? – uhoh May 17 '17 at 09:19
  • @uhoh: A chance of getting an actual answer :) – SF. May 17 '17 at 10:41
  • @SF. Why didn't you up vote this question? – Muze May 12 '18 at 03:06
  • @Muze: Because I don't consider it valuable. I'm a practical person, and I'm against standardization of curvature of banana, and similar endeavors. – SF. May 12 '18 at 22:07
3

I may have overlooked this in the preceding replies but so far I think there is a conceptual oversight. There are actually two forms of "downrange distance" that are usually considered, whether for space launchers or ballistic missiles. Most of the respondents appear focused on the geodesic ("great circle") distance between the launch point and the current point in space. That is fine for some purposes, including the evening news. This distance may be thought of as purely geometric. However, for some purposes one must consider the ground track, the path coverage over Earth's surface as it rotates. The ground track is not a geodesic and can only be computed numerically since it involves the summation of the incremental distances covered at each instance of time. For short time spans, the ground track and geodesic distances are nearly indistuishable. For large spans of the true anomaly, the ground track will deviate significantly to one side or the other of the geodesic path. This is especially noticeable for, say, sounding rockets having long hang times above the surface. These can sometimes produce crazy looking curves, depending on launch point and apogee. So, I would first clear up what is desired. If a ground track is desired, then numerical integration (summation) is the only solution, which doesn't have to be complex to get a satisfactory practical result.

  • Thanks for the insight! You can probably see there was some pushback and I still don't exactly understand why. The usage example that I later added (at the end of the question) is a press kit rather than an engineering document, and so it is hard to know exactly what was meant there. I'll see if I can find a more suitable example. – uhoh Sep 27 '18 at 21:02