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Somewhere on this site I read that in NASA, the rocket leaves the launchpad (through release of explosive bolts) only after the engines have attained full power.

Assuming in the scarce seconds between SRB ignition and launch a critical failure occurs, say, main engines switch off, could the shuttle just "wait it out" letting the SRBs burn out without leaving the launchpad? Or would that result in yet different disaster?

SF.
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    I suppose there's a good reason why the SSMEs were given time to get up to rated thrust before SRB ignition. See also RSLS abort. – user Apr 04 '17 at 15:13
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    It wasn't possible in Spacecamp :) – Steve Apr 04 '17 at 15:33
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    For as much crap as that movie gets, I loved it when I was a kid. I think it probably had a not-insignificant influence on my eventual career path. – Tristan Apr 04 '17 at 16:49
  • In addition to RSLS abort scenarios, look at RTLS abort scenarios. If a SSME failed after SRB ignition, then the response would be an RTLS abort. However, if more than one SSME failed, the shuttle would be lost. – Toast Apr 04 '17 at 16:58
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    @TaylorOstberg your comment greatly oversimplifies the situation. Depending on the time of failure, different aborts were possible. https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/10600/what-is-the-problem-with-aborting-a-space-shuttle-launch/10605#10605 – Organic Marble Apr 04 '17 at 17:19
  • I think you're thinking of the delay between the SSME's starting and launch; as @MichaelKjörling said, aborts were possible in that time frame. – DylanSp Apr 04 '17 at 18:59
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    @DylanSp Not only were possible, but happened on several occasions. IIRC only one intact abort was ever made after liftoff during the Shuttle program, and that was an ATO (abort to orbit) abort. – user Apr 04 '17 at 19:14
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    @Organic Marble Of course I was oversimplifying, it was a <600 character comment, not a dissertation. That's why I included a link to a more complete description of the abort scenario. – Toast Apr 04 '17 at 20:59
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    @TaylorOstberg all you had to do was add one word. "shortly" after "if an SSME failed". The way it's written, it's very misleading. – Organic Marble Apr 04 '17 at 22:32
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    "Booster Systems Engineer Jenny M. Howard acted quickly to inhibit any further automatic SSME shutdowns based on readings from the remaining sensors, preventing the potential shutdown of a second engine and a possible abort mode that may have resulted in the loss of the vehicle and crew." I'd argue that an abort mode that results in the loss of vehicle and crew kinda defeats the purpose. "Oh. no. The engine might blow up. Better turn it off so that we plummet to our deaths..." – Shane Apr 05 '17 at 16:50
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    @Shane I think that 'may have' is the key part there. That said, there are abort modes in most rocket stacks that do indeed destroy the vehicle. Normally this is done in order to limit/control the damage that could be done to things on the ground. – reirab Apr 06 '17 at 23:10
  • Jenny Howard is an unsung hero of the Shuttle program. There were endless, endless meetings and arguments about the merits of inhibiting vs enabling auto shutdowns. In general it ended up that instant explosion was always the worst choice - maybe you could survive the abort if you didn't blow up. – Organic Marble Apr 09 '17 at 14:23
  • Analysis showed that if the engine detected a limit shutdown condition, 33% of the time it would blow up no matter what action the controller tried to take, 33% of the time it would blow up if it didn't shut down but be ok if it did, and 33% of the time it would not blow up even if left running. – Organic Marble Apr 09 '17 at 14:31
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    Note to all the answerers who believe the SRB exhaust will melt the bolts: the SRB exhaust does not impinge on the bolts. It goes out the flame trench, and the bolts are quite a bit above the nozzle exit plane. – Organic Marble Apr 07 '19 at 01:31

6 Answers6

60

No. Compare Space Shuttle Launch Countdown.

The SRB fire command and the hold-down fire commands are issued at the exact same time. The delay of about 6 seconds (note: each SSME is started at a different time, all 0.2 seconds apart) is to ensure that each of those engines are up to full throttle without errors prior to launch (which is called a Redundant Set Launch Sequencer abort). This has happened 5 times in the program history:

  • STS-41-D (at T-6 seconds due to a stuck LOX valve)
  • STS-51-F (at T-3 seconds, due to a coolant valve malfunction....also note the subsequent successful launch of this mission was the first and only Abort-to-Orbit of the Shuttle program)
  • STS-51 (at T-3 seconds, due to a faulty fuel flow sensor)
  • STS-55 (at T-3 seconds, due to incomplete ignition of #3 because of a LOX check valve leak)
  • STS-68 (at T-1.9 seconds, due to a LOX turbopump overtemp reading on #3)

Russell is correct in that the exhaust of the APCP in the SRB is too hot (it boils steel) for anything to survive it for more than a few seconds. In fact, the Ares 1-X launch damaged a "substantial" section of the fixed service structure on Pad 39B when its exhaust plume briefly torched the above-ground structure of the pad after liftoff (due to a pad avoidance maneuver that it had been programmed to execute). While it didn't matter much since NASA was planning on disassembling this structure anyhow, it's proof that a pad can little survive a continuous SRB burn.

Bret Copeland
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ereisch
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I don't have an immediate citation handy, but the answer is no.

The SRBs were powerful enough to overcome the hold-down studs. That said, the same signal was used to blow the nuts on the hold-down studs and ignite the SRBs.

Once the SRBs light, the vehicle is going somewhere.

Tristan
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    Weight of shuttle stack at liftoff: ~ 4.4 million lbs; Thrust of 2 SRBs: ~ 6.2 million lbs – Organic Marble Apr 04 '17 at 17:41
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    An astronaut said to me, only half-joking, that once the SRBs light, the question wasn't if you were going, but how much of Florida is going with you. – Adam Apr 04 '17 at 17:50
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    Not only was the trust-to-weight ratio of the Orbiter plus SRBs (minus thrust from SSMEs, but including the ET) about 1.27:1 in favor of going, the TWR was also climbing rapidly as the engines burned through their fuel. The SRBs last two minutes and change, massing a combined 1,142,000 kg each. Even when you consider their dry weight, that's a metric crapton (how I wish that was a real unit of mass) of fuel burned per second. I looked up the numbers for my answer to How far would the STS get without the SRBs. – user Apr 04 '17 at 18:37
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    @MichaelKjörling the TWR would not mandatory climb, because SRBs thrust may vary during flight. You have some examples of thrust profiles in this answer – le_daim Apr 05 '17 at 07:13
  • @le_daim True, I was simplifying a bit (and ran out of comment space). Actually, though, Hobbes' answer to that question looks even more relevant in this particular case. Note that there are multiple peaks and valleys in the STS SRB thrust, including an initial increase of thrust between T+0 and about T+22 seconds. – user Apr 05 '17 at 07:15
  • Well, disregarding changing TWR, that's 0.27 shuttle weight of force directed upwards, vs the launchpad carrying 1 shuttle weight of force directed downwards. Doesn't look that bad initially. How's that looking with near-empty SRBs but full main tank? – SF. Apr 05 '17 at 07:19
  • @SF. Interesting question. I think an answer would be quite possible to piece together from the same data used in https://space.stackexchange.com/a/12134/415 and https://space.stackexchange.com/a/19704/415 (probably among some other places), but it'd be too long for a comment. Please do post it as a separate question and add a link from here! – user Apr 05 '17 at 11:29
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    @SF. That's still 1.8 million pounds of force (and quickly rising) vs. the hold-down studs (which are also being simultaneously incinerated by the SRB exhaust.) – reirab Apr 06 '17 at 23:17
  • @reirab: note they are already holding against 4.4 million pounds of force, keeping the shuttle from falling down. Yes, the exhaust is a problem, but almost all of it goes down the flame trench at that point. – SF. Apr 07 '17 at 07:02
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    From Wayne Hale: "A real fear – alleviated by a million software verification checks – was that somehow the solid rocket boosters would be ignited and something – an RSLS Abort command for example – would stop the launch sequencer in the last milliseconds. That would be a disaster. If the hold down posts and T=0 umbilical panels and the GUCP arm did not separate, or the liquid engines were commanded to shut down, the consequences would be immediate and devastating. So that software was tested over and over again with all the variations of inputs that could be devised." – Tristan Apr 07 '17 at 14:05
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    Source link: https://waynehale.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/ten-years-after-columbia-sts-112-the-harbinger/ – Tristan Apr 07 '17 at 14:05
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    @SF. Hmm, I assumed that were just to keep it from tipping over (i.e. to counter side loads) rather than actually holding the whole weight of the stack, but it looks like you're right. The studs are also apparently preloaded with a force even greater than what the stack's weight puts on them. That said, while it looks like the studs would initially be able to hold the force, eventual catastrophic failure from exposure to the exhaust still seems likely well before burnout. – reirab Apr 07 '17 at 15:33
  • @SF. Did some more looking into this and posted an answer. – reirab Apr 07 '17 at 16:40
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Could the shuttle wait out the whole burn of SRBs on launchpad in case of a problem on launch?

No.

The question seems based on the assumtion that something (the hold-down bolts perhaps) could hold the stack down while the SRBs burn out, while being immersed in the 3300 degree Celsius exhaust for about 128 seconds. Note that during this time, while the hold-down bolts are melting, the stack is getting lighter due to the fuel burned and thus easier for the now-rogue SRBs to lift.

In fact, there were two incidents in which two of the hold-down bolts did not fire, and over twenty more in which a single bolt did not fire. The SRBs tore them apart with no effect on the mission, just as expected. However, the failure of four or more frangible nuts to fire may in fact exceed the space shuttle load-carrying capability, i.e. hold down the stack. Thank you to reirab for linking to the relevant PDF in the comments!

dotancohen
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    There are redundant pyrotechnics on the bolts that fire simultaneously for just this scenario. I did not hear of instances of the pyros not firing, but I do remember a couple cases of the fired bolts not staying in their capture devices, which posed a debris impact hazard to the orbiter on liftoff. I can't find a source at the moment though. – ereisch Apr 05 '17 at 13:36
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    As I understand it, it wasn't that the nut pyros didn't fire at all, it's that they didn't successfully separate the nut, resulting in what they called a "stud hangup". They later redesigned the frangible nuts to include a pyrotechnic bridge to improve reliability. – Tristan Apr 05 '17 at 14:41
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    The phrase "you seem to assume" is a bit rude. I suggest avoiding it unless the asker is so confused that the question makes no sense. – Tor Klingberg Apr 06 '17 at 16:08
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    @TorKlingberg: Thank you, I've reworded the part in question. – dotancohen Apr 09 '17 at 06:52
  • @reirab: Thank you, I've updated the post with information in the linked PDF. – dotancohen Apr 09 '17 at 06:52
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    The SRB exhaust does not impinge on the bolts.' – Organic Marble Apr 07 '19 at 01:35
  • @OrganicMarble: Not directly. But if the SRBs don't get off the pad, then for 128 seconds everything in the vicinity will be immersed in that exhaust. As the saying goes, once the SRBs light that shuttle is going. The only question that remains is how much of Florida is going with it. – dotancohen Apr 07 '19 at 08:26
  • Do you have any NASA or contractor analysis to back up your assertions? – Organic Marble Apr 07 '19 at 10:29
  • @OrganicMarble: I have no NASA or contractor analysis to back up the assertion that "an object 100 cm from a stationary burning SRB for 2 minutes will melt it". I understand what you are getting at, that the flame trench would redirect the exhaust. Even if the bolts do not melt, the two SRBs had a total of 1,000,000 kg of propellant. So by the time the SRBs burn out, the stack is half it's original weight, for a TWR ratio of about 2.5:1 (no RS-25s). The bolts would be significantly weakened as well. – dotancohen Apr 07 '19 at 14:37
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The existing answers are correct that the same signal that ignites the SRBs also blows the nuts that hold the restraining bolts in place, so the answer is generally, no, it's not possible.

If, for some crazy reason, the nuts didn't blow, but the SRBs did ignite, things are a little different.

According to this engineer on reddit, who apparently helped design the aforementioned frangible nuts, the nuts are made of Inconel-718. Each SRB is held down by 4 of these.

According to the same engineer, the nuts and studs are actually already preloaded with about 750,000 pounds of force each. About an eighth of the (thrust - weight) of the stack would then be added to this on each post if the SRBs ignited without blowing the nuts. The aforementioned engineer performed a back-of-the-envelope calculation showing that the nuts would have a failure load around 1.65 million pounds each. Since each bolt would only have in the ballpark of 1 million pounds of force on it (including the preloaded tension,) the bolts should be able to initially hold the stack down when the SRBs light.

However, there are a couple of remaining problems.

First, the weight of the stack is rapidly decreasing due to fuel burn, meaning that the force on the bolts is rapidly increasing.

Second, and probably more importantly, the exhaust of rocket motors is really hot. While I haven't seen an exact source for the SRB exhaust specifically, NASA lists the combustion temperature of the main engines at up to 3,300 C! However, Inconel-718 will melt around 1,300 C. So, while the nuts and studs should initially hold the stack down, they'll almost certainly start heating up very quickly from the SRB exhaust and fail soon afterwards.

While I'm not sure about Inconel-718 specifically, in general, metals lose a lot of their strength well before hitting their actual melting point, so it's not likely that the bolts would be able to hold the stack down for very long. Even if they withheld all of their strength prior to melting, given the amount of energy and temperatures involved, it's quite likely that the nuts would melt well before the SRB burnout and the stack would leave the stand. No guarantees about how or in what direction it leaves the stand, but it will leave it (provided the stack doesn't disintegrate first.)

Of course, it's also entirely possible that some other failure mode will destroy the stand and/or stack before the nuts fail. The stand is designed to withstand the energy of several seconds of the SSMEs burning and a very brief encounter with the exhaust of the SRBs, but it's not designed to be able to withstand and quickly dissipate the energy of the entire 2-minute-long SRB burn.

reirab
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    The SRB exhaust does not impinge on the bolts.' – Organic Marble Apr 07 '19 at 01:35
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    @OrganicMarble No, but it's close enough that I can't imagine it wouldn't be heating rather rapidly... Direct impingement isn't necessary for that. – reirab Apr 07 '19 at 01:53
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    The parts of your answer about the bolts melting are pure speculation. – Organic Marble Apr 07 '19 at 01:56
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    @OrganicMarble Being in close proximity to very large amounts of exhaust that is 2,000 C above their melting point for nearly 2 minutes, I tend to disagree. Of course, they'd likely fail before that, anyway. – reirab Apr 07 '19 at 02:00
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The hold down bolts are not designed or meant to hold the shuttle stack down for the complete burn of the SRBs. In Mike Mullane's book "Riding Rockets" he says that the shuttle stack would rip itself apart if the hold down bolts didn't release. They have had trouble with some bolts not falling out of the post after the nut is blown. But even one bolt not releasing would cause the loss of the shuttle and most likely the crew, as that booster would be ripped apart and separated from the shuttle stack. The stack with one SRB would cartwheel destroying it.

There is fractions of a second between the bolts being blown and the ignition of the SRBs.

W Pontius
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    As other answers mention, there have actually been several incidents of a nut not firing. The force of the stack's thrust ripped it apart with no effect on the mission. The failure load of the nuts is well below the stack's (thrust - weight.) – reirab Apr 07 '19 at 01:50
  • @reirab There were no incidents of a "nut not firing". There were some incidents where one of the redundant pyro systems didn't fire. – Organic Marble Jan 12 '20 at 19:34
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    @OrganicMarble Fair. I should have said that there have been several incidents of the nuts hanging up. They were ripped off by the launch force anyway. The NASA document linked in an above answer said that there were concerns that 4 or more hang-ups could cause a launch to fail. There were several incidents of a single nut hanging, 2 incidents of 2 hanging, and no incidents of more than 2. In all of the incidents where at least one hung, the launch force of the shuttle ripped it/them off anyway and the mission continued normally. – reirab Jan 13 '20 at 08:15
  • @reirab It wasn't the nuts that were hanging up, it was the bolts, or "studs". The buzz phrase for this problem in the program was "stud hang-ups". If you want to read about how this system really worked and the actual problem with it, read my answer to this question: https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/34072/saturn-v-and-sts-holding-to-launch-pad-mechanism – Organic Marble Jan 13 '20 at 13:38
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When the SRBs light nothing will stop them short of propellant exhaustion. The hold down bolts cannot hold the stack and with no main engines it won't reach any kind of altitude in two minutes of burn and have no directional control. This opens a whole range of ugly scenarios the engineers have had many sleepless nights over. This is a situation that simply cannot happen.

  • Hi Harley Foster! Welcome to Space Exploration SE! Can you quote some sources: i.e. for the fact that hold down bolts cannot hold the thrust of SRBs? Also, about directional control, I think SRBs had gimbals - couldn't they achieve directional control just with that? – BlueCoder Jan 10 '20 at 13:58