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We know how to calculate the parameters of a $Y$ circuit in order to get its $\Delta$ counterpart, and vice versa, as well.

My question is as follows.

Assume that we have an equivalent pair of a $\Delta$ and a $Y$ circuit both locked in boxes.

Is there a possibility two reveal which box contains which circuit if we have access only to the outside terminals?

EDIT

The author of the first comment asks the question:

"Doesn't the word "equivalent" imply that you cannot distinguish between the two circuits?"

Yes, if we stay within the realm of the model. But in reality?

Assume now, that we have a chance to do measurements on a set of impedances. Having done some experiments with the possible parts, we surrender them and a secret agent assembles them into a $Y$ or $\Delta$ circuit.

What would we have to do if our task is to find out what the secret agent did?

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zoli
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    Doesn't the word "equivalent" imply that you cannot distinguish between the two circuits? – Farcher Apr 21 '17 at 09:49
  • @Farcher: The word "equivalent" might have been ill chosen. However it refers only to the fact that the values were computed according to the formulae given in the reference. By the model, the two circuits are "equivalent". But in reality they might have differences that you can identify. – zoli Apr 21 '17 at 09:52

2 Answers2

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The $Y$-$\Delta$ transform assumes linear circuit elements. Real circuit elements are nonlinear, so it should be possible to distinguish between the two cases by using sufficiently large voltages/currents. The current flow is "spread out" over more resistors in the $\Delta$ circuit than in the $Y$ circuit (think about connecting only two of the terminals, for instance), so the nonlinear responses will be different.

Edited to add an example:

Just to illustrate the idea, imagine that all the $Y$ resistors are identical ($R_1 = R_2 = R_3 = R_Y$), but that $R_Y$ changes value when the current $I$ through the resistor passes some threshold: $R_Y = R_Y^0$ for $I < I_Y$ and $R_Y = R_Y^1$ for $I > I_Y$. You can imagine the change happening smoothly over some range around $I_Y$, if you wish.

By symmetry, the $\Delta$ resistors must also be identical, $R_a = R_b = R_c = R_{\Delta}$, and must change value when the current passes some threshold: $R_{\Delta} = R_{\Delta}^0$ for $I < I_{\Delta}$ and $R_{\Delta} = R_{\Delta}^1$ for $I > I_{\Delta}$. However, the secret agent is free to choose $R_{\Delta}^0, R_{\Delta}^1$ and $I_{\Delta}$ as he or she wishes.

Equivalence of the circuits at low currents forces $R_{\Delta}^0 = 3 R_Y^0$. Equivalence at very high currents forces $R_{\Delta}^1 = 3 R_Y^1$. I claim that we can distinguish between the two circuits by doing a two-terminal measurement (say across nodes 1 and 2), and ramping the applied voltage/current:

For the $Y$ circuit, the same current flows through resistors $R_1$ and $R_2$. These will change value at the same current, so the IV curve will change slope only once. For the $\Delta$ circuit, on the other hand, more current flows though $R_c$ than through $R_a$ and $R_b$. Therefore, $R_c$ will change value before $R_a$ and $R_b$. Consequently, the IV curve will change slope twice.

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Maybe we could add reactive loads with the resistive load(in case the load is purely resistive) then connectveach to a three phase supply and obserce for the differenr harmonics?

Chappy
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