My PhD was on so called "pure" model theory, and my advisor was not very much interested in applications of model theory to algebra. Now I feel the need to fill in the gap, and I'd like to educate myself on applied model theory. One of the questions I always asked myself is about the study of groups definable (or interpretable) in some structures : it seems that model theorists are very fond of that, since a long time ago (at least since the 70's to my knowledge, and even quite recently with works about groups definable in NIP structures by Pillay). Why is it so ? I guess that the origin of all this is the fact that groups definable in ACF are precisely algebraic groups. This is indeed a nice link between model theory and algebraic geometry (by the way, does this link has brought something interesting and new to algebraic geometry, or has it always been just a slightly different point of view ?). But if it is so, why going on to study extensively groups definable on such exotic kind of theories as NIP or simple for example ? Is it only because something can be said about those groups and that groups are prestigious objects within mathematics, or are there deeper reasons ?
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3I'm definitely not an expert; but isn't it simply because model theory is about definable things, and so the only groups that sit inside structures that you can talk about are the definable/interpretable ones ? – Maxime Ramzi Feb 10 '19 at 14:57
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"Groups and logic mix well" - Wilfrid Hodges in Building Models by Games. – Levon Haykazyan Feb 10 '19 at 15:22
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@Max : I guess there sould be some much deeper reasons. If not, why not study definable lattices, or rings, or whatever ? Moreover model theory is not mainly about definable things in my opinion. – huurd Feb 10 '19 at 15:27
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13Oh you were asking about why "definable groups", I thought you were asking about why "definable groups"; my bad – Maxime Ramzi Feb 10 '19 at 15:36
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Thinking about groups vs manifolds -- perhaps every topological 4-manifold can be realized as a definable subset of $\mathbb{R}^8$, but do model theorists talk about anything like that? – Feb 10 '19 at 16:50
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3I think that groups being prestigious is a significant reason (which of course is related to good reasons to being prestigious). And also it is easier to continue in a well-studied topic (model theory of groups) than opening a new topic. – YCor Feb 10 '19 at 17:03
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3@MattF. "Definable" means "definable by a formula of first-order logic". Very very few topological manifolds can be realized as definable sets relative to the theory of the real field. On the other hand, you could add enough to the language to make all sorts of crazy topological manifolds definable, but the resulting theory would be an extremely "wild" theory that general theorems of model theory wouldn't apply to. As a middle-ground, you can look at an o-minimal expansion of the real field, e.g. by the exponential function and analytic functions restricted to compact domains... – Alex Kruckman Feb 10 '19 at 17:21
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1... and then you're in a world where model theorists really do talk about the definable manifolds. But again, you'd still be in the world of "tame topology", without any of the scary pathologies you get in the world of general topological manifolds. – Alex Kruckman Feb 10 '19 at 17:24
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@AlexKruckman, that's why I said "topological manifold" and "can be realized": Any topological 4-manifold can be embedded into $\mathbb{R}^9$. (Now that I check https://mathoverflow.net/questions/34658/is-there-a-whitney-embedding-theorem-for-non-smooth-manifolds, I see I was off by 1 dimension.) I expect that the image of the embedding will always have a continuous bijection to some semi-algebraic approximation. And if so, the algebraically definable 4-manifolds in $\mathbb{R}^9$ capture all the topological 4-manifolds. – Feb 10 '19 at 17:33
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@Matt Your answer is very much in the spirit of o-minimality, but sounds very close to "every 4-manifold" is triangulable. Is that the case?! – Ivan Di Liberti Feb 10 '19 at 17:37
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@AlexKruckman, I also expect, with more certainty, that the category of piecewise-linear 4-manifolds is isomorphic to the category of algebraically definable piecewise-linear 4-manifolds in $\mathbb{R}^9$. So model-theorists could talk about piecewise linear topology without difficulty or wildness, though as an application it's less appealing since topologists are more focused now on the continuous and smooth categories. – Feb 10 '19 at 17:42
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4@MattF. The claim that every topological $4$-manifold is homeomorphic to a semi-algebraic set seems unlikely to me, but I don't know enough topology to assess it. Even if it's true, the category of topological $4$-manifolds definitely won't be equivalent to the semi-algebraic category - there just aren't enough semi-algebraically definable functions. But all that aside, I'm not sure what your point is here. How is this discussion relevant to the question? – Alex Kruckman Feb 10 '19 at 17:50
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@AlexKruckman, the point is that definable manifolds could actually be a reasonable subject for model theory, so it shows a significant bias that model theorists spend so much more time talking about definable groups. Or, put otherwise, I am interested in the second and third parts of your answer -- but if mathematicians are fond of groups, they are also fond of manifolds. – Feb 10 '19 at 17:59
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1@IvanDiLiberti, apparently not all topological 4-manifolds are triangulable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E8_manifold#History), so I will need to see how if there is a better formulation for the topological category. Up until just now, I knew about the failure of unique triangulation, but I will need to think more about this lack of triangulability. – Feb 10 '19 at 18:07
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1Wait, NIP and simple theories are exotic? – tomasz Feb 10 '19 at 19:09
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1A bit more exotic than stable ones isn't it ? – huurd Feb 10 '19 at 20:20
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2@MattF In fact there are some results on definable piecewise-linear topology, in particular Masahiro Shiota's o-minimal Hauptvermutung. But Shiota was very much not a model-theorist. I think that this kind of thing requires a deep understanding of topology, so it's inaccessible to most model-theorists. – Erik Walsberg Oct 03 '20 at 21:24
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You might be interested in the first sentence in this paper: "Definable groups have been at the core of model theory for at least a period of three decades, largely because of their prominent role in important applications of the subject, such as Hrushovski’s proof of the function field Mordell-Lang conjecture in all characteristics." – Anguepa Mar 21 '21 at 15:13
2 Answers
Here are a few reasons. These are just my perspectives - some people may disagree, and I'm sure there are good reasons to study definable groups that I'm missing.
Mathematicians in general are fond of groups. There is a general theme in mathematics (with different motivations in different contexts) of developing a theory of group objects in any category of interest. For example, algebraic groups are group objects in the category of algebraic varieties, Lie groups are group objects in the category of differentiable manifolds, topological groups are group objects in the category of topological spaces, etc. Model theorists study the category of definable sets relative to a first-order theory, and group objects in this category are definable groups. [Aside: I'm confused by your comment "model theory is not mainly about definable things in my opinion". If it's not about definable things, what is it about?] Moreover, it sometimes happens that definable groups relative to a theory $T$ correspond to groups of classical interest in mathematics, e.g. as you mention in the question, definable groups relative to the theory of algebraically closed fields are essentially the same as algebraic groups.
Stable groups and their generalizations. One of the most successful applications of Shelah's general stability theory has been the theory of stable groups (i.e. groups definable in stable theories). Model theorists love to generalize results, so there's a natural motivation to try to prove theorems analogous to theorems about stable groups in a wide variety of more general model theoretic contexts, or in individual (unstable) theories of interest. Extra motivation comes from the fact that the theory of stable groups, together with the kinds of connections between definable groups and groups in algebraic geometry mentioned in the previous point, led to Hrushovski's impressive applications of model theory to Mordell-Lang and related problems. This is just one example of applications of the theory of definable groups to other areas of mathematics. For others, you could look at Hrushovski's work on approximate groups, or recent applications to regularity lemmas in groups - both of these make heavy use of theorems about definable groups outside the stable context which were inspired by theorems about stable groups.
Binding groups and internality. Getting more technical here, internality is a key concept in geometric stability theory. Roughly speaking, if one (type-)definable set $X$ is internal to another (type-)definable set $Y$, then the automorphism group of $X$ over $Y$ in the monster model is realizable as a definable group, called the binding group. The classic example is that an $n$-dimensional vector space $V$ over $k$ is internal to the field $k$, with binding group $\text{GL}_n(k)$. If you can understand what kinds of groups are definable in your theory, then you can understand what kinds of internality relations are possible relative to your theory, which can lead to powerful structural results.
Edit: In the comments, you ask "Why not study definable lattices, or rings, or whatever?" In fact, model theorists do study such things. Classifying definable equivalence relations (elimination of imaginaries) is extremely important - it's one of the first things you want to do when you start studying a theory. It's also very important to know whether your theory has any definable orders. And the question of the definability of a field in certain structures is the central question of the Zilber trichotomy and Zariski geometries, which has been a central motivating force in modern model theory.
My point is that definable groups get more attention than other kinds of structures (like lattices, for example) for reasons including those I outlined above. But a huge variety of instances of the general question of interpretability of certain theories in other theories come up everywhere in model theory.
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1About your aside: from my perspective, model theory is about invariant things. When you go outside of stability theory (well, maybe also outside of $\omega$-categorical), definable things go near-extinct fast. They are still important, but often they don't really get to the heart of things. – tomasz Feb 10 '19 at 19:13
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@tomasz Yeah, that's a totally reasonable point of view. I think you can come at it from either side: If you're primarily interested in the invariant category, you should still care about definability, because definable / type-definable / $\bigvee$-definable / Borel-definable sets have better properties (like compactness!). On the other hand, to me, the definable category is the main object of interest, and one is naturally led to enlarge the category by invariant gadgets (this is essentially what Stone duality teaches us) in order to prove things about definable sets. – Alex Kruckman Feb 10 '19 at 19:53
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I guess I'm just too attached to the compactness theorem to agree that model theory is primarily about invariant things. – Alex Kruckman Feb 10 '19 at 19:53
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Well, with type-definable, you still have compactness, you just need to be careful with negations. – tomasz Feb 10 '19 at 20:02
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@tomasz Oh, absolutely. That's why type-definability is the best kind of invariance after definability. – Alex Kruckman Feb 10 '19 at 20:04
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1Isn't model theory also in a large part about classifyng models of a first order theory as Shelah did ? this program involves of course definability, but as a tool more than a mean. – huurd Feb 10 '19 at 20:18
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@huurd Yes, I agree, questions like that are also central to model theory. – Alex Kruckman Feb 10 '19 at 23:28
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@tomasz : by invariant do you mean invariant by the automorphism group of the monster model ? – huurd Feb 11 '19 at 05:22
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1@huurd: That's what I mean. About classifying models --- I don't feel that it is quite so central in modern model theory, even if it has been historically important. Classifying theories seems to be a much more popular theme, I think. – tomasz Feb 11 '19 at 11:24
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@tomasz : it´s been a few years I´m not connected with model theory anymore, so I´m a little bit rusted : if I recall well invariant objects are important in the context of NIP theories, but what kind of invariant objects ? can you give examples where definable things don´t get to the heart of the things, and have to be replaced by invariant ones ? About classifying models, you´re right it´s not the main theme of research nowadays, but it is fundamental inside the corpus of knowledge in model theory. – huurd Feb 12 '19 at 09:53
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Another thing which is central in model theory and does not have to do directely with definability is understanding extensions of complete types in various classes of theory. – huurd Feb 12 '19 at 09:59
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@AlexKruckman : would you know of a clear and neat account of binding group/internality themes ? at the time of my thesis I tried to read the book by Pillay on geometric stability but I found it very hard to go in, are there some more readable books about it ? – huurd Feb 12 '19 at 10:05
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@huurd: Not to stray too far from definable groups, in unstable theories, a group may be definably connected (= have no definable subgroups of finite index), but it may still be very meaningful to ask about large invariant and type-definable subgroups. For example, if you take a compact Lie group, definable in an o-minimal expansion of the reals, then the quotient of that group (interpreted in the monster model) by its smallest type-definable subgroup of small index turns out to be the group you started with (i.e. a Lie group over the real numbers). See also Pillay's conjecture. – tomasz Feb 12 '19 at 15:03
Alex's answer is very good, but there is another reason that is worth mentioning. One of the main goals of model theory is to known when first order theories of interest are interpretable in other theories of interest and when they are not. Many structures of interest expand a group, so it is important to understand interpretable groups. For the same reason it is important to understand interpretable fields, and work on interpretable fields often builds on work on interpretable groups.
Here's a nice example: Suppose that $\mathcal{R}$ is an o-minimal expansion of a real closed field $R$. It is a theorem of Otero, Peterzil, and Pillay that any infinite field interpretable in $\mathcal{R}$ is definably isomorphic to either $R$ or $R[\sqrt{-1}]$. (O-minimal expansions of fields eliminate imaginaries, so here "interpretable" is equivalent to "definable".) It easily follows that if $\mathcal{S}$ is another o-minimal expansion of a real closed field, and $\mathcal{S}$ is interpretable in $\mathcal{R}$, then $\mathcal{S}$ is isomorphic to a reduct of $\mathcal{R}$.
This shows that there are no non-trivial interpretations between o-minimal expansions of ordered fields. So for example $(\mathbb{R},+,\cdot,\exp)$ is not interpretable in $(\mathbb{R},+,\cdot)$. The proof of their theorem uses the theory of definable groups in o-minimal structures.
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Can you mention some open questions on interpretability, especially for algebraic or geometric theories? Or are most of the questions in the area on arithmetics and set theories? – Oct 04 '20 at 01:34
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@MattF Sure, although a different person might give you a very different list. It's an open question to give a characterization of theories interpretable in the theory of an infinite set with equality, in other words to characterize the theories that are interpretable in the theory of any infinite structure. This has come up on mathoverflow https://mathoverflow.net/questions/231791/%cf%89-categorical-%cf%89-stable-structure-with-trivial-geometry-not-definable-in-the-pur. – Erik Walsberg Oct 04 '20 at 01:46
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1It is also an open question to show that any infinite field interpretable in $\mathbb{Q}_p$ is definably isomorphic to a finite extension of $\mathbb{Q}_p$. This is known for definable fields, but for example $(\mathbb{Z},+)$ is interpretable in $\mathbb{Q}_p$ as the value group, but not definable. One can ask similar questions for other valued fields like $\mathbb{C}((t))$. The only case where this has been answered to my knowledge is work of Hrushovksi and Rideau and on algebraically closed valued fields. – Erik Walsberg Oct 04 '20 at 01:47
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It would also be nice to have a classification of groups interpretable in a boolean algebra, or at least in the countable atomless boolean algebra. I talked about this with Macpherson, and if I remember correctly he told me that it is conjecture that any such group is a boolean power of a finite group. (this could be a bit wrong). – Erik Walsberg Oct 04 '20 at 01:50
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I also don't think we have an understanding of which groups are interpretable in a non-abelian free group. Sklinos and Byron show that a non-abelian free group does not define an infinite field, but I think the question is open for intepretations. One can also ask the same questions for torsion-free hyperbolic groups (the model theory of these is very similar to the model theory of free groups by very difficult work of Sela) – Erik Walsberg Oct 04 '20 at 01:52
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I would like to know more about groups interpretable in the monadic second order theory of $(\mathbb{N},<)$. Some computer scientists showed that this theory does not define an infinite field. This structure may not seem geometric, but it actually is because it is mutually interpretable with a number of expansions of $(\mathbb{R},+,<)$ that define fractals. For example it is mutually interpretable with the expanion of $(\mathbb{R},+,<)$ by a binary predicate defining the Sierpinski carpet. See for example this paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/1310.0309. This is closely tied to automata theory – Erik Walsberg Oct 04 '20 at 01:58
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There are also a number of questions about things interpretable in trees or graphs, or in the monadic second order theories of such structures that arise in combinatoric and computer science. I don't know much of anything about that stuff. – Erik Walsberg Oct 04 '20 at 01:59
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Finally, most natural structures are either model-theoretically tame or interpret arthimetic. So there are questions about whether particular structures interpret arthimetic. These questions aren't tied to work on definable groups, it's just a question of whether a particular structure is tame. Examples include $\mathbb{F}_p((t))$ or the maximal abelian (or solvable) extension of $\mathbb{Q}$. (I think in the latter case one would need to first answer some hard algebraic questions, so at this point it is really a question of number theory.) – Erik Walsberg Oct 04 '20 at 02:02
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1Thanks, those are great -- and worthy of a survey article if you want to write it ! And I like monadic second-order theories; you can see my question here: https://mathoverflow.net/questions/332867/monadic-second-order-theories-of-the-reals – Oct 04 '20 at 02:09
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1Yeah, I don't think there has been any work on the monadic second order theory of the reals for a long time, people where probably scared off by the difficulty of the work of Shelah and Guervich. I believe it's an open question whether the monadic second order theory of $(\mathbb{R},<)$ is decidable under ZF + AD, this should be very close to the question of whether the monadic second order theory of $(\mathbb{R},<)$ is decidable when set quantifiers are restricted to Borel sets. – Erik Walsberg Oct 04 '20 at 22:11