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Was the Constitution of the United States meant to be perpetual?

The Constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation which specifically says is perpetual yet the constitution has no such wording.

The founding fathers had no authority to bind anybody but themselves.

And also it states in the Constitution “ No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President” The “at the time of the adoption of this Constitution” leads me to believe they did not want anybody become president that was not a citizen at the time it was adopted. They wanted the people to write a new constitution like they do with the States constitution.

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    Note that the "or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution" bit was added explicitly for the benefit of Alexander Hamilton, who was born in the West Indies. The Constitution has the option to be edited in any way, which adds a philosophical "ship of Theseus" aspect to the question, i.e. after how much change is the Constitution not the constitution? – sharur Oct 06 '21 at 23:47
  • @ sharur You provided a note but no source or evidence of where your information came from – DonutConnection Oct 06 '21 at 23:52
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    "They wanted the people to write a new constitution like they do with the States constitution." - Yes. And that's exactly what they did. Which is why it exists now. I'm not sure what exactly the confusion is, here. Generally speaking, people expect things they make to remain made until action is taken to unmake them, be it a bed, a pizza, an investment, or a nation-state constitution. –  Oct 07 '21 at 00:05
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    If your question is in the meaning of the citizenship requirement, we already have that answered: https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/7194/ . You appear to have the misconception as that Q&A resolves, separately from whatever this question is about. –  Oct 07 '21 at 00:07
  • @NIJ they replaced the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution. That died out when the signatories to it did. They had no authority to bid anybody except themselves. Read Lindsey Spooner’s “No Treason: The Constitution of no authority” the state of Pennsylvania’s constitution is 1967 so there is still a state constitution with people that are still alive that might claim they agreed to it yet the Constitution of the United States hasn’t been . – DonutConnection Oct 07 '21 at 00:26
  • @NIJ no that question hasn’t been answered the post was closed without the answers to my comments there. Don’t claim the question was answered there when it hasn’t been. My posts were hidden there – DonutConnection Oct 07 '21 at 00:28
  • @NIJ Someone posted in the other link you gave: “ There has never been a definitive legal interpretation of this clause. The Constitution is not self-interpreting. Only the Supreme Court of the US can give a definitive interpretation of what The Constitution says. SCOTUS has never been called on to interpret this issue” “A credible linguistic argument can be made that under rules of contemporary English, the comma before "at the time of the adoption of this Constitution" gives that restriction scope over both "a natural born citizen" and "a citizen of the United States". – DonutConnection Oct 07 '21 at 00:36
  • @NIJ they then go on with “ There are many schools of legal interpretation just on points of language, setting aside extra-textual considerations. No shool ever has held that the interpretation of the Constitution changes when the language changes. To make the argument that that last modifier has scope over both clauses, you would have to establish that there was such a rule of language at that time. There is ample evidence to the contrary.” they contradicted themselves without providing any evidence of proof for the last sentence. – DonutConnection Oct 07 '21 at 00:40
  • What ample evidence to the contrary is there? – DonutConnection Oct 07 '21 at 00:41
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    The preamble has a pretty good hint: "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity". – Nate Eldredge Oct 07 '21 at 00:44
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    @DonutConnection: That is true; however note that it was posted as a comment, rather than an answer (Answers would be posted down below). Also, apparently Hamilton himself wrote the clause (something that I did not know until right now): http://moglen.law.columbia.edu/twiki/bin/view/AmLegalHist/WillHamiltonProject. While that does conclusively prove the intent behind its addition, I would hold that to be strong supporting evidence. – sharur Oct 07 '21 at 01:06
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    Lysander, not Lindsey. – user6726 Oct 07 '21 at 01:21
  • That question is very clearly and definitely open. Whatever you've been reading or responding to, it wasn't my comment. Please next time make your point understandable and relevant. If your comments or posts were deleted, it's very likely because you kept trying to debate the verifiable and justified answers instead of making one with credible sources. –  Oct 07 '21 at 01:43
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    @DonutConnection Any state or federal court can make a binding interpretation of the U.S. Constitution, not just the U.S. Supreme Court. – ohwilleke Oct 07 '21 at 02:28
  • @user6726 my mistake. You are right it is Lysander Spooner. I should have double checked the name but was relying on false memory. My apologies to Lysander. – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 01:25
  • @NIJ I think I understand now why my posted were deleted. I do not have enough reputation to comment there as it is saying I need 50 reputation to comment. I posted messages as answers that should have been posted as comments – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 01:27

2 Answers2

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Was the Constitution of the United States meant to be perpetual?

Yes, the Constitution of the United States was meant to be perpetual, subject to the amendment procedure contained in the Constitution itself.

There are two possibilities, either it was perpetual, or it was intended to cease to be effective at some point in time that is defined somewhere.

No court or legal scholar has ever seriously suggested that the Constitution had an expiration date. Neither does any legislation ever adopted (apart from the efforts of the former Confederate States to leave the Union without its consent which was repudiated by the U.S. Civil War and related legal and political proceedings).

As Nate Eldredge noted in a comment, the preamble of the United States Constitution states that it was adopted "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".

The fact that the Constitution contained a transition provision in relation to its "natural born citizen" requirement for a country that didn't exist prior to 1776 does nothing to change any of this analysis.

The founding fathers had no authority to bind anybody but themselves.

The assumed rule that someone has no authority to bind anyone but themselves is not now, and never has been, the law.

The authority of people to bind people other than themselves, including successors who aren't even born yet, to legal documents, is long standing in both Western and Eastern legal systems.

Agents can bind principals. Employees can bind employers. Union officials can bind their members. Partners can unilaterally bind each other. People creating trusts can bind the trustees and beneficiaries of the trust long after they are dead; charitable trusts can be perpetual. Military officers can bind their subordinates. Parents can bind their children in many jurisdictions. Guardians and conservators can bind their wards. Executors of estates can bind a decedent's heir and devisees. Home owners associations can bind member property owners and their guests. Governments can bind their residents. Sovereigns can bind their subjects.

Before the modern concept of property arose in the early modern period (i.e. prior to around 1500 CE), real estate ownership was primarily hereditary and inalienable, as was the serf-lord relationship. Transfers of property are not undone when the person who makes them ceases to exist. Real estate covenants routinely "run with the land" after they are created by the current owners.

The legal obligations you enter into while you are alive are binding upon your estate at death. In the civil law countries with legal systems based upon those of Continental Europe (derived in turn from Roman law), the default rule is still that the obligations of a decedent are binding upon the decedent's next of kin, although it is not terribly difficult to opt out of that default rule in the heir's discretion after death if they elect to do so (and many do). Until not long before the Industrial Revolution, in the late early modern period of history, most Western legal systems, and East Asian legal systems, provided that your descendants continued to be bound by your debts and could not opt out of that obligation.

When a legal entity is bound, all successor owners, directors, officers, managers, and partners of the entity are bound perpetually by anything done by someone with apparent authority to do so and by judgments entered against the entity.

The United States of America is, of course, a legal entity which is not operated for profit, so the ability of its founders to bind successive generations is a pedestrian principle that follows from ordinary non-constitutional law anyway.

A treaty between nations are binding long after every single person who signed of on it is dead.

The assumed rule that someone can bind only themselves simply does not pass even casual examination.

ohwilleke
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  • you claim no legal scholar has ever seriously suggested that the constitution had an expiration date. Lysander Spooner has. Read “No Treason: The constitution of no authority” it was a series of articles written by him after the civil war.

    You also quoted what Nate Eldridge wrote about the preamble saying “secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our prosterity”. The founding fathers had no authority to bind anybody other than themselves. All authority resides in the people. If they would have wrote “we built these log cabins to provide safety for us and our prosterity”

    – DonutConnection Oct 08 '21 at 06:41
  • Would they have had the authority to bind their children to those cabins? The children would have had to live in them even after all their parents have died? – DonutConnection Oct 08 '21 at 06:42
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    @DonutConnection To call Lysander Spooner a legal scholar is to call Donald Trump a physician because he recommended certain medical treatments. LS was a revolutionary thinker, but he wasn't trying to construe the constitution in a manner that would secure authoritative agreement. He was justifying revolution. Authority is socially constructed and they had such authority. – ohwilleke Oct 11 '21 at 18:55
  • they had no authority to bind anybody other than themselves. You can’t delegate more authority than you actually have to begin with. If you have no authority to tell another man what types of clothing to wear you can’t delegate authority to government giving them some imaginary right to have all men dress the same. – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 01:32
  • What is the constitution anyway has the Supreme Court ruled it was a contract? And if so how did it bind anybody other than those that signed it? – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 01:34
  • @ohwelleke and what is your definition of a legal scholar? – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 01:40
  • A judge or legal scholar; an individual who is versed or skilled in law. The term jurist is ordinarily applied to individuals who have gained respect and recognition by their writings on legal topics. – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 01:44
  • @ohwelleke you claim he was justifying a revolution. How is writing about how the constitution didn’t bind anybody other than the signatories justifying a revolution? There are people that have since then taken an orb of office to uphold the constitution. They did not have that same oath at the time of Lysander Spooner’s becoming an attorney. All he was saying is that nobody at the time was bound to it. Still applies to people that haven’t taken the oath. You have a right to discovery in any criminal case. Just ask for what evidence they have the constitution and statutes apply to you – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 01:52
  • Attorneys can’t argue outside the facts in evidence If they don’t have facts to back up their argument they have jurisdiction and that the statutes apply the courts should bar them from bringing up that argument – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 01:52
  • Notice: my comment above is not mean to make people believe no laws apply to them. There is still common law. It might not get you out of civil cases against you. Only saying the Constitution and statutes don’t apply if you haven’t taken an oath of office – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 01:55
  • @DonutConnection Your questions pose what a judge would call frivolous arguments. I will not respond to them. If you made those arguments in a court of law you would be sanctioned. – ohwilleke Oct 15 '21 at 01:55
  • I made no argument. Just presenting facts – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 01:56
  • @ohwelleke how are questions arguments? – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 01:57
  • ​Failing to provide the facts and witnesses with personal knowledge is fatal to the prosecution's case and is not only prosecutorial misconduct,

    “By going outside the evidence, the prosecutor “violated a fundamental rule, known to every lawyer, that argument is limited to the facts in evidence.” United States ex rel. Shaw v. De Robertis, 755 F.2d 1279, 1281 (7th Cir.1985) (emphasis mine).

    but due process requires the court to not permit the prosecution to argue there is jurisdiction over me and the laws of the plaintiff state apply.

    – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 01:59
  • Above comment was in a Motion in Limine. Why would I be sanctioned? Am I claiming facts known to be false? I speak truth. Not lies – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 02:03
  • @ohwelleke you wrote “There are two possibilities, either it was perpetual, or it was intended to cease to be effective at some point in time that is defined somewhere” Are there a laws of contracts that defined it? As in the Death of the Signatories – DonutConnection Oct 15 '21 at 03:21
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The founding fathers had no authority to bind anybody but themselves.

They didn't bind anyone. Each state was bound by its own ratifying convention deciding to ratify the constitution. As to whether these conventions had the power to bind others than themselves, well, they were chosen for that purpose by their state legislatures, and the state legislators were elected by the people of the state for the purpose of wielding the state's power to create laws and conclude treaties that bind the people of the state. As to whether people of the state who were eligible to vote had the power to bind those who were not, well, it's a tougher question, but centuries of democratic practice provide precedent for the answer being yes.

So the people and institutions that established the constitution had the power to bind others who were alive at the time of the constitution's establishment. What you're really trying to argue is that they had no power to bind anyone who was born subsequently. But again, that argument does not succeed, because, in fact, governments can and do assert power over people who were born after they were established.

And also it states in the Constitution “ No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President” The “at the time of the adoption of this Constitution” leads me to believe they did not want anybody become president that was not a citizen at the time it was adopted.

You misconstrue the purpose of this passage. The intention is to prevent foreign influence in the federal government. One way of doing that is to require presidents to be natural born citizens of the US. But in September 1787, when the constitution's text was finalized, the oldest natural born citizens were eleven years old and in no state to lead the federal government. Or maybe they considered people born before 1776 in the territory of the US to be natural born citizens and they just didn't want to exclude Hamilton and others like him (who had been born elsewhere but were established in the US by 1787) from politics. Therefore, they added a second criterion allowing those who were citizens as of the constitution's adoption to serve as president. Only one of these criteria need to be met, which is why the eighth word of the provision is "or."


To answer some of your questions in comments:

[If they had written] "we built these log cabins to provide safety for us and our [posterity]” would they have had the authority to bind their children to those cabins?

Yes, they can leave the cabins to their children.

The children would have had to live in them even after all their parents have died?

No, they can do whatever they want with them, just as the present people of the United States can amend the US constitution.

If you have no authority to tell another man what types of clothing to wear you can’t delegate authority to government giving them some imaginary right to have all men dress the same.

Nobody is claiming that the US has this authority. But it does have all kinds of authority that does not derive from individual authority. Rather, the people, collectively, have greater authority than any one of them does. That is a philosophical matter, however, not a legal one. Legally speaking, authority lies with the federal and state governments.

What is the constitution anyway...?

It is the document that establishes the government and creates the framework for its operation.

has the Supreme Court ruled it was a contract?

No. It isn't a contract, and individuals inside the US cannot avoid being subject to it (other than by moving abroad and renouncing US citizenship or by campaigning for and obtaining its repeal through the amendment process).

[Is] there a laws of contracts that defined it? As in the Death of the Signatories[?]

Parties to a contract can be individuals or corporations. The constitution is more closely akin to a treaty than to a contract, since it is an agreement between states, requiring ratification by the states' legislatures. But there is one sense in which it is similar to a contract between corporations: it is signed by individuals who represent the state, which is similar to a corporate contract being signed by one or more individuals representing a corporation.

If two people enter into a contract that ends because one of them dies, the significant fact is not that one of the signatories has died, but that one of the parties has died. For example, if Bob has power of attorney to sign a contract on Alice's behalf, Bob's subsequent death does not have an effect on the contract, but Alice's does.

Similarly, if two companies' presidents sign a contract, and one of them dies, or both of them do, the contract between the companies remains valid. Similarly, if two (or more) countries conclude a treaty and they both (or all) ratify it and it goes into effect, it retains its effect even after the people who signed it have died.

The same is true of the US constitution.

phoog
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  • "Each state was bound by its own legislature ratifying the constitution." State legislatures didn't ratify the Constitution. It was ratified by special conventions established in each state. Those conventions were called by state legislatures, but Article VII specifically required ratification by a convention and not by the state legislature itself. – cpast Sep 05 '22 at 18:49
  • @cpast corrected, thanks. – phoog Sep 05 '22 at 19:20