24

This article says, "When it's your word against the police officer's [regarding a failure to stop at a stop sign], the person with the badge usually wins." It seems like the officer should have to present at least some kind of evidence that the alleged crime occurred. I could see this being in the form of a video from his or her dash cam. However, if it's his or her word against mine, what prevents him or her from pulling people over to meet some kind of quota?

tlewis3348
  • 343
  • 2
  • 8
  • 4
    It's a good reason to get your own dash cam. That being said, I've been driving 25 years roughly 20k/yr and I have never been pulled over for something I didn't actually do. My wife did right when the using cell phone while driving laws started and we didn't even own cell phones, but never got a ticket. – rtaft Jul 09 '21 at 14:42
  • 1
    There are so many people he could pull over to meet a quota who actually did violate some rule or another he's got no reason (typically) to pick people out who he just doesn't like or who are unlucky and lie about it in court. There are so many people violating laws against, e.g., texting/phone when driving, rolling stops, unsafe lane changes, driving when a ped. is in the crosswalk (other side of street but non-divided highway), speeding in residential areas, speeding in work zones, turning right after full stop against a sign saying no right turns after full stop, etc etc etc etc etc. – davidbak Jul 09 '21 at 23:23
  • 3
    "what prevents him from pulling people over to meet some kind of quota?" You're worried about guilty until proven innocent... and you end with what reads as an accusation that presumes guilt until the officer is proved innocent (of lying to meet a quota)... Am I the only one to see a conflict of ideas here? – WernerCD Jul 10 '21 at 20:51
  • 2
    @ColleenV Another reason to show up is to plead "guilty with explanation" and hope the judge takes pity on you and reduces the punishment (e.g. doesn't put any points on your license). – pacoverflow Jul 11 '21 at 01:42
  • A quota to find guilty people, seriously? Adjusted to some kind of expected crime rate? Good luck. – Volker Siegel Jul 11 '21 at 03:35
  • 1
    @WernerCD I think the difference is that the officer is not on trial. If he were accused of perverting the course of justice and put on trial then at that point he would also gain the benefit of innocent until proven guilty. – Peter Bagnall Jul 11 '21 at 09:14
  • @davidbak - and yet it happens, cops literally lying when issuing a ticket and if brought to court. The motivation may be something other than quota. There have been some cases where the cop gets some satisfaction of getting away with occasionally writing bad tickets, but they rarely get caught. It was worse in the days of the 55 mph speed limit, where some cops were getting creative, such as using view of headlights in mirrors at night time and stop watches as evidence of speeding (the cops would be going 45 to 50 mph in the slow lane, waiting for "speeders" to catch up). – rcgldr Jul 11 '21 at 21:16
  • @davidbak - in a somewhat famous case, a cop in a airplane was clocking two speeding motorcycles, using markers on the road and a stop watch. He apparently lost track and switched the order of the motorcycles, claiming one of them averaged 205 mph from marker to marker on a bike with top speed of 165 mph. Despite the obvious mistake, the cop testified in court he didn't lose track and the bike was going 205 mph. – rcgldr Jul 11 '21 at 21:26
  • @davidbak - forgot to mention, tickets based on judging distances from mirrors at nighttime (or in some cities, also daytime) were no longer allowed after some lawsuits. I don't know what happened to prior cases involving such tickets. – rcgldr Jul 11 '21 at 21:37
  • @davidbak I personally got ticketed for "disobeying a No Left Turn sign". I foiaed the county highway department and got back correspondence about replacing the missing "No Left Turn" sign. It turns out it went missing before my ticket was written and was replaced after it was written. There was no "No Left Turn" sign for me to disobey. I still got a ticket. – emory Oct 17 '21 at 01:16
  • 1
    @emory, Did you end up having to pay the ticket, or did they dismiss the case? – tlewis3348 Oct 18 '21 at 12:45
  • @tlewis3348 I did end up paying the ticket. I brought all that documentation to court. I took pictures of the intersection both before and after they re-installed the sign. I showed this to the judge. The cop said the sign was there. The judge ruled guilty. I had the option to appear but I would have to put down a big deposit, fill out a ream of paperwork, and gone to court at least one more time. I decided it was better to just pay the fine and be done with it. In retrospect, had I know how traffic court worked I would have just paid the fine online, saving a fruitless court trip. – emory Oct 18 '21 at 15:30
  • @tlewis3348 the impression I got was that the judge does not really care. he sees the same police officers again and again each session. He will never see me again. One does not get a fair shake at traffic court - so the optimal strategy is to reduce one's losses. – emory Oct 18 '21 at 15:33

6 Answers6

49

It seems like the officer should have to present at least some kind of evidence that the alleged crime occurred.

Testimony is evidence. Officers can and do abuse this, but courts tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, so they typically attribute greater weight and credibility to a police officer's testimony than to that of a defendant.

phoog
  • 37,212
  • 5
  • 79
  • 127
  • 3
    Typically, "evidence" is in the form of two independent lines of evidence. This could be an eyewitness to the crime, video evidence, etc. For speeding, it could be logs from the speed gun. For violent crimes, it could be DNA. In any case, a single line of evidence seems highly problematic. Particularly when there are quotas in place. If the officer is a little shy of meeting his quota, why would he not write a few people up for running a stop sign whether they did or not? – tlewis3348 Jul 08 '21 at 17:45
  • 15
    @tlewis3348 I agree, but as far as I'm aware there is nothing that elevates "problematic" to "insufficient for conviction" -- especially when it comes to traffic infractions, which aren't even misdemeanors in most states. The main point of this answer is to say that this technically does not violate the presumption of innocence, though I agree that in many cases it does effectively violate that presumption. It's just that getting a court to agree with that is fairly unlikely in most cases. – phoog Jul 08 '21 at 17:51
  • 2
    Your statement makes no sense. If every evidence requires two lines of evidence then those two evidence requires four evidence which means they require 8 which means you need 16, no you need 32 ... actually you would need infinite evidence to admit any ONE evidence. I presume you actually mean "Typically proof requires two independent evidence". There are two kinds of evidence. Things like eyewitness statements (the police officers) are considered direct evidence, typically regarded as strong evidence. Things like DNA evidence is circumstantial evidence legally considered weak – slebetman Jul 09 '21 at 03:11
  • 3
    It could be noted police officers usually take an oath and on that basis are untrusted by the state to enforce laws, and are generally presumed trustworthy by said state. That's why the testimony of a police officer (which is generally strong evidence by itself) will usually prevail over yours absent any other evidence. They don't even need a speed gun, in many jurisdictions they can just eyeball it when you are well over the limit. – AmiralPatate Jul 09 '21 at 08:32
  • @slebetman s/he didn't say "a line of evidence is two lines of evidence" but "evidence is two lines of evidence" meaning that if you only have one line, it's not evidence (in his/her opinion) – user253751 Jul 09 '21 at 08:52
  • @tlewis3348 "Typically, "evidence" is in the form of two independent lines of evidence. This could be an eyewitness to the crime, video evidence, etc. For speeding ..." - Speeding and failing to stop at a sign are traffic code violations; they are not crimes, and are regulated by different laws than criminal law. The requirements for evidence are less strict for such violations than they are for criminal trials. You can't apply assumptions for one to the other. – marcelm Jul 09 '21 at 09:39
  • @marcelm in Texas, at least, traffic violations are misdemeanors and, therefore, crimes. – phoog Jul 09 '21 at 10:47
  • 1
    Typically speed and red light camera tickets are civil infractions, meaning the burden of proof is "Preponderance of Evidence standard" rather than "Beyond Reasonable doubt." This means the cop doesn't have to prove that he's 100% right, but rather that he's more likely right than he is wrong. – hszmv Jul 09 '21 at 11:30
  • 6
    *Not all evidence is equal.* A police officer's testimony in a traffic case is considered more compelling than defendant's because it is considered professional, objective and (relatively) unmotivated, whereas a defendant's testimony generally is none of those things. You can however overcome this if you have corroborating evidence, such as another eyewitness who will confirm your claim (and personally, I have done this). – RBarryYoung Jul 09 '21 at 19:05
  • @user253751 That makes no sense. One evidence is one evidence. It is never composed of two evidences. Two evidences are two evidences. Each evidence is it's own line of evidence. Also in law witness testimony (the statement by the police officer) is the strongest form of evidence. All other evidence such as forensics are circumstantial evidence and are considered weaker than what a witness (the police) say they saw you did. – slebetman Jul 09 '21 at 19:15
  • Almost no jurisdictions require more than one item of evidence; the big exception is the doctine of "corroboration" in Scots law. – pjc50 Jul 10 '21 at 08:13
  • 1
    Police officers typically are trained to observe AND take notes. I was pulled over for "driving on the shoulder". In court the officer stated he didn't believe I was wearing a seat belt (I was, I even put my hands out my driver window until he was beside me and I told him before I undid my seatbelt).

    His evidence was his notes which he read from in court. There is no way he could have distinguished me from the 100 others he'd pulled over in the intervening months. I brought photos of the broken solid line. The judge waived all fines, and points.

    – Steven the Easily Amused Jul 11 '21 at 17:18
  • I don't disagree with anything you said, but maybe you can connect it to the concept asked-about in the question itself. Perhaps clarifying that "proven guilty" means proven to the satisfaction of the decider of fact. – grovkin Jul 12 '21 at 15:29
  • @pjc50 I would have thought that a bigger exception was treason in the United States: "No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court." but I guess technically a conviction can be secured on one piece of evidence. – emory Oct 19 '21 at 00:50
17

European viewpoint:

"Innocent until proven guilty" relates only to the criminal process.

There is also an "administrative process" where the traffic control pretty much belongs, as well as other matters where the government exerts control, e.g. food quality.

In the administrative process, the inspector's findings are considered true unless a substantial evidence is brought up against them. The burden of the proof lies at the defendant.

This is true at least in:

  • Bulgaria: The law system is (somewhat indirectly) derived from the German one and very similar to other soviet-influenced countries.
  • Germany: There is a) Ordnungswidrigkeit for minor infractions, handled administratively, with the punishment typically being a fine (called Geldbuße) and b) Straftat for crimes handled by courts, with the punishment typically either a fine (called Geldstrafe), or a (possibly suspended) prison sentence. Traffic violations in particular can be either a Ordnungswidrigkeit for minor infractions (wrong parking, moderate speeding) or a Straftat for major infractions (driving under the influence of drugs, driving w/o permit).
feetwet
  • 21,795
  • 12
  • 80
  • 175
fraxinus
  • 1,299
  • 6
  • 10
  • 2
    What country does this relate to? I know that in England traffic laws are enforced through the criminal process. – bdsl Jul 09 '21 at 09:39
  • 2
    Relating to the law matters, England (common law system) is not Europe. Continental Europe is Civil law everywhere. – fraxinus Jul 09 '21 at 09:43
  • 1
    OK, but it might still useful to name a particular country where this applies and say what the "administrative process" is called in that countries system - partly to make it possible to fact-check this answer. Lots of people do wrongly believe that in England traffic law and criminal law are two entirely separate things. – bdsl Jul 09 '21 at 09:49
  • 1
    In particular, the mechanism in Germany is called Strafbefehl, which is when the defendant is automatically found guilty without a process unless they actively defend themselves. – Nobody Jul 09 '21 at 10:35
  • 1
    @Nobody: Well, not quite. A Strafbefehl is basically the court offering you a deal to accept a certain punishment. It becomes binding if you do not actively oppose it, that is true, but no real defense is necessary - a simple objection is enough. At any rate, this is not really connected to the question anymore :-). – sleske Jul 09 '21 at 13:22
  • 3
    @fraxinus I think the problem stems from the fact that "Europe" is not a legal jurisdiction. For example, the UK jurisdictions, Ireland, and Cyprus, are all in Europe but use the common law system. Also, "Continental Europe is Civil law everywhere" - note that civil law vs common law (i.e. the system itself) has a different meaning to civil law vs criminal law (i.e. a category of law). A country having a civil law system does not imply that traffic offences cannot be criminal. – JBentley Jul 09 '21 at 14:19
  • JBentley sorry, this is more of an English language issue on my side. I should have written Roman law system and no ambiguity would arise. And yes, driving with 1.2/1000 alcohol is criminal matter here as well. – fraxinus Jul 09 '21 at 15:36
  • fraxinus @sleske thanks for adding the details about Bulgaria and Germany. – bdsl Jul 09 '21 at 18:41
  • Spain uses a civil law system, yet "innocent until proven guilty" or "in dubio pro reo" is still considered a lot in administrative court. But a cops declaration is enough almost immediately can destroy the innocence in administrative court, while in a criminal one it will be examined more carefully. – jinawee Jan 01 '24 at 22:39
12

However, if it's his word against mine ...

I don't know the US point of view, but I have read that in Germany the courts evaluate the "evidence" (which includes statements of witnesses) by importance.

If your word is against the word of the police officer, the court will judge the two statements the following way:

  • The police officer is trained to observe situations in the traffic exactly. He is paid to tell the court exactly what he has seen. He has no motivation to tell anything but the truth.
  • The driver was focused on driving the car so it is possible that he didn't see the stop sign. The driver doesn't have a motivation to tell the truth but he has a motivation to say that he observed the stop sign - even if he didn't do it.

... presumed guilty in traffic court

This has neither to do with being presumed guilty, nor with the traffic court:

If somebody stole goods in the supermarket and there is exactly one uninvolved witness who can identify the thief, the court will also believe the uninvolved witness and not the defendant.

In the case of the stop sign, the police officer is the uninvolved witness.

phoog
  • 37,212
  • 5
  • 79
  • 127
Martin Rosenau
  • 852
  • 6
  • 8
  • 7
    The German perspective may indeed be different from the US point of view. The OP suspects that a traffic officer may falsify their testimony in order to meet a quota – that would be their motivation to tell something that is not the truth. I don't know how prevalent quotas are in the US, but they certainly don't exist (officially) in Germany. – Schmuddi Jul 09 '21 at 09:34
  • 2
    @Schmuddi the logic underlying a US court's deference to a police officer's testimony is broadly similar, however, regardless of whether quotas or other factors render US officers more likely to abuse that privileged position. – phoog Jul 09 '21 at 10:45
  • I might add that theft is different because there is multiple lines of witness possible. There's the presence of the stolen goods, the observation of eyewitness, the absence of a proof of purchase, security camera footage, etc. If a person accuses me of stealing something, and there's no further evidence of me doing that thing, then it would be unjust to convict that person of theft. – tlewis3348 Jul 09 '21 at 13:33
  • @tlewis3348 why would it be unjust? If I see someone steal my bike, why is my testimony not enough for them to be punished? Or perhaps they pull a knife on me? There’s all sorts of things for which there is a lone witness. – Tim Jul 11 '21 at 10:29
  • @Tim Because if you have no corroborating evidence for your accusation, you could accuse anyone of anything. – tlewis3348 Jul 11 '21 at 10:37
  • @tlewis3348 I could, but I’m not likely to, because I a) am generally a good person and b) don’t want to go to prison for perjury. The requirement is “guilty behind reasonable doubt”. If my testimony alone meets that requirement, why would that be unjust? It would be more unjust, IMO, to require I have additional evidence when that might not be practicable. – Tim Jul 11 '21 at 11:44
  • You might be a "good person", but many aren't, and how is the court supposed to determine who's a "good person", and who isn't? – tlewis3348 Jul 11 '21 at 12:11
  • The police officer is not uninvolved. Too many bad tickets and his job is in jeopardy. – Joshua Jul 11 '21 at 18:49
5

You are not presumed guilty. You are accused by an eyewitness (the police officer). In my experience, if the eyewitness does not appear, the case is dismissed. Even then, his word is not beyond doubt, if you can show evidence, you can sometimes win the case. (in my case I was new to the area and a construction sign partially obscured the speed limit sign - I don't know if this would have been sufficient because the officer did not show - case dismissed).

In regards to "his word over mine", if you look at this from a 3rd party perspective, the accused in any court has a much stronger incentive to lie than the police officer so the testimonies are not weighed equally. Also a police officer is trained and is actively watching at the time of the infraction whereas the driver is often paying more attention to other cars (while singing along with Brittany in a falsetto voice).

2

It's an infraction, not a crime. This is Civil Court

There are two separate court systems:

  • Criminal court, with The State as prosecutor, life and liberty in jeopardy and "proof beyond a reasonable doubt".
  • Civil court, with any private party as plaintiff, no risk to life or liberty, and "more likely than not". (51%)

Civil court is for civil disputes - e.g. disputes between parties. "51% more likely than not" is fair because they are "parties of equals" and because jail and death penalty are off the table.

The State doesn't have to prosecute everything criminally. It can choose to step into civil court to resolve any matter it pleases; jail isn't an option, but proof is 51%.

That's exactly what most States have done with traffic infractions (and a huge variety of other petty matters like littering, parking violations, building code violations etc.)

Sometimes you see a hybrid "in-between" sort of court specifically for traffic disputes - but it's the same couplet: Reduce the jeopardy, reduce the proof. This is a matter of sheer necessity: due to the massive volume of traffic citations, the system cannot bear the burden of seating a jury (of whom? People who never sped?) for every speeding ticket.

You can guess what happens with 51% when it's your word vs. a cop's, a presumably neutral observer who had no particular reason to pick on you.

Harper - Reinstate Monica
  • 19,563
  • 2
  • 27
  • 81
  • 2
    In many US states traffic offenses and other "infractions" are really a 3rd category, neither criminal nor strictly civil. However, as other comments have mentioned, in some states all or most traffic offenses are misdemeanors and thus crimes, and in many states some serious traffic offenses are crimes. – David Siegel Jul 09 '21 at 16:50
  • @DavidSiegel I meant "States" as in jurisdictions like Wales or Bavaria. But yeah, they're a semi-third category because treating them as full crimes creates a logistics problem - the State can't afford to seat a jury for everyone who wants to fight a speeding ticket. So some short-circuiting of rights/consequences must occur. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jul 09 '21 at 17:48
  • The "preponderance of the evidence" standard is "more likely than not" i.e. P(X) > P(~X) or "51% likely" i.e. P(X) >= 0.51 and not "51% more likely than not" i.e. P(X) >= P(~X) + 0.51 – Ben Voigt Jul 09 '21 at 18:18
  • 1
  • @Harper-ReinstateMonica, In traffic court, is the state not the prosecutor? According to your description of two separate court systems, wouldn't that make violations of traffic law a criminal offense? – tlewis3348 Jul 09 '21 at 19:12
  • @tlewis I would say more a plaintiff... It might feel like they're a prosecutor because they have really good witnesses lol... – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jul 09 '21 at 19:22
  • 1
    How is the state a "private party"? – tlewis3348 Jul 09 '21 at 20:48
  • 2
    @tlewis3348 How is the state prohibited from being a private party? You're making it sound like states are barred from filing lawsuits and can only pursue legal action by making a matter criminal. That doesn't make any sense, since a state defines what all that stuff even is. They would have no earthly reason to deny themselves the recourse of litigation. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jul 09 '21 at 21:22
  • @Harper-ReinstateMonica Do words have meaning, or are definitions completely arbitrary? Typically, the distinction between "public" and "private" is the distinction between the realm of government and everything else (e.g., "public service", "public accounting", etc.). If the state can be a "private party", then the distinction between public and private seems meaningless. I mean I get that governments do illogical things all the time, but I'm at least going to point out when something doesn't make sense. – tlewis3348 Jul 11 '21 at 10:29
  • 1
    @tlewis3348 It sounds like you're just nitpicking that a legal "term of art" doesn't quite match its colloquial meaning. Why would you expect this? – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jul 11 '21 at 14:59
  • ¯\ (ツ)/¯ I'm not a lawyer. All I'm saying is this seems to be one of those things that contributes to the general disgust people like me have with the lawerly profession. A public entity (i.e., the State) get's to arbitrarily declare itself to be a private entity whenever it's in it's own interest. Something seems wrong with that. – tlewis3348 Jul 12 '21 at 12:25
0

In the case of a traffic stop, there's often no possibility of independent evidence (unless there's dashcam video). If the court doesn't give significant weight to the police officer's testimony, there's hardly any point to the hearing. The driver isn't going to implicate themselves (why would they even have contested the ticket?).

While the officer could be over-ticketing because they're trying to meet a quota, if we routinely dismiss their testimony because of this then the whole system falls apart.

So the process we have is basically the only practical solution. We assume the officer has little reason to lie, while anything the defendant says is self-serving and the court should be suspicious. That doesn't mean it's ignored, but there needs to be good reason to believe that the officer messed up. I recall the episode of "The Andy Griffith Show" where Aunt Bea was ticketed for running a red light; they eventually figured out that at that time of day the sun caused a glare that made it difficult to see the stop light, so it wasn't her fault. Absent exigent circumstances like that, we're stuck with the testimonies of the officer and the defendant, and the court has to weigh their veracities.

If a particular officer is routinely over-ticketing, they'll likely have more of their tickets contested than other officers. I hope that police departments track this and investigate the circumstances.

Barmar
  • 1,966
  • 10
  • 22
  • Well, this would seem to indicate to me that traffic crimes are unjustly prosecuted in general, and the enforcement of traffic law should be more focused on actual harms rather than imaginary ones like rolling through a stop sign when the intersection is clear. That would certainly be a significant change from the current practice (and cut into police budgets significantly), but that doesn't mean the injustices aren't real. – tlewis3348 Jul 09 '21 at 14:39
  • 2
    While it's true that many municipalities see traffic fines as a revenue source, I'll be optimistic and view these laws as deterrants. We want to prevent accidents, not wait for them to happen and prosecute due to the harm. And the threat of fines is about the only tool we have. – Barmar Jul 09 '21 at 14:43
  • I guess I'm less optimistic when it comes to government activities. Such things shift the focus of the cops away from catching those that are causing genuine harm and toward those causing imaginary harm. – tlewis3348 Jul 09 '21 at 14:46
  • 3
    I don't think this is the appropriate place for this discussion. If you think your police department is actually ignoring "real crimes" because they're spending too much time ticketing traffic violations, take that up with your local government. – Barmar Jul 09 '21 at 14:49
  • @tlewis3348, ...as a "vulnerable road user" -- a cyclist and pedestrian -- I want enforcement of traffic violations to be as aggressive as possible (including against the subset of cyclists that don't follow traffic law). I've had quite enough close calls from vehicles trying to race through a yellow light; don't need it to be seen as consequence-free when folks are lucky enough to not kill someone in the process. – Charles Duffy Jul 09 '21 at 15:25
  • 1
    @CharlesDuffy Racing through a yellow light is legal, since it's really a green light that is very stale. The litmus test is: As long as the "racer's" front bumper crosses the stop line (not to be confused with pedestrian lines) before it turns red, the "racer" may continue across. On the other hand, when the light turns green, your responsibility is to search to ensure the way is clear before entering. The green light/white hand does not absolve you of that. Relying on indignity rather than traffic law may be more fun, but it WILL get you killed. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jul 09 '21 at 16:42
  • 1
    @Harper-ReinstateMonica, there are responsibilities on multiple parties -- the above is a very inaccurately one-sided summary. I fully agree with your final line, but the content above it could lead to an inaccurate conclusion that folks "racing the yellow" are behaving legally. At least in both states where I've had formal training, such actions are ticketable as reckless driving (especially if one accelerates into the intersection to try to make it across, which is what I'd argue is a key defining factor of "racing the yellow"). – Charles Duffy Jul 09 '21 at 16:46
  • @Harper-ReinstateMonica The possibility of getting a ticket if you don't beat the light should deter you from racing. – Barmar Jul 09 '21 at 16:47
  • And I'm going to reiterate: The question is about the court process, this isn't the place to debate whether these traffic laws are a good idea in the first place. Post your own question about that (it might belong in [politics.se]). – Barmar Jul 09 '21 at 16:49
  • @Harper-ReinstateMonica Please stop this. He's not saying that it's OK to play chicken with drivers because you have the right of way. But drivers shouldn't test the limits, either. – Barmar Jul 09 '21 at 17:11
  • BTW, I once got a warning when I went through a green light while a pedestrian was jaywalking across it. They have the right of way even when they're violating the law. – Barmar Jul 09 '21 at 17:13
  • @Barmar Yellow light durations have Federally assigned minimums, so you know how long you have (for sure) on a yellow. There's no "should", either you're legal or your not. What alarms me is pretending yellow-running is illegal and using that as an excuse to step out on green without looking. But you're right, the traffic laws overlap, giving multiple parties at once the duty to avoid accidents. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jul 09 '21 at 17:27
  • @CharlesDuffy It's the side you are missing... so, it's one-sided only in that sense... you already know the other side, so no need repeating it. The takeaway is you don't know traffic law near as much as you think LOL... so don't use that limited understanding for any fatal decisions... – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jul 09 '21 at 17:44
  • @Harper-ReinstateMonica, ...at the risk of remaining off-topic, you're assuming that I don't know items that are tangential to my point just as much as you were objecting that I was assuming you didn't know things that weren't included in your argument because they were tangential to same. These mutual assumptions aren't doing anyone any credit. – Charles Duffy Jul 09 '21 at 18:12
  • @Barmar, I apologize. I wasn't intending to derail things. – tlewis3348 Jul 09 '21 at 19:13
  • Where it’s a misdemeanor, it may result in asylum seekers getting kicked back into a hellhole. So, no, this is not how you deal with injustice. And not only because it may have dire effects. The cop wear a f* $5 camera, that’s it. Not even remotely the only practical solution. – kisspuska Jul 09 '21 at 22:52
  • 1
    So throw the baby out with the bathwater? We shouldn't try to prevent accidents because in extremely rare cases the perpetrator may be deported? Anyway, what is the practical alternative you suggest (other than changing the laws so these aren't crimes/misdemeanors)? – Barmar Jul 09 '21 at 23:11