Did Aztecs know how many continents there are on earth?

Question

I was leafing through an old French magazine, Historia, and read something that caught my attention. The author of a small article on Aztecs games mentionned a god, Xochipilli Macuilxochitl, who was crowned with five flowers. According to the article, the five flowers were symbols for the five continents of Earth.

It seemed absurd to me but I haven't the knowledge to prove it and be sure of the absurdity. If someone had any information about this crown, the geographical and traditional knowledge or beliefs that could make sense, I would be very happy to know about it.

Aztecs didn’t even know that the Earth is round... How would they know if the Americas or Eurasia count as one or two continents? — Greg, Mar 02 '21 at 18:26
The five flowers could be related to the myth of the five suns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Suns) or just to the Aztec calendar (18 months of 20 days + 5 special days at the end). — Carlos Martin, Mar 02 '21 at 18:59
@CarlosMartin - That would make some sense. This looks a lot like a translation issue, and the "suns" in their five suns can also be translated as "five worlds". — T.E.D., Mar 02 '21 at 19:22
BTW: I'm finding some really interesting stuff looking into this. However, next to none of it backs up what you're remembering having read. It would be nice if you could dig up a more certian reference to the article, as I don't really want to cast aspersions on something that I haven't even read. — T.E.D., Mar 02 '21 at 19:36
@T.E.D. The magazine is really into popularisation, as we can read on french Wikipedia "A popularised journal, Historia places the desire to entertain at the centre of its approach, while another journal, L'Histoire, relies more on scientific rigour."; so it wouldn't be surprising is an error was made. About the article, here's a picture of it - it would be too long to retranscrite in a comment - https://imgur.com/a/6OW3NhZ — atrefeu, Mar 02 '21 at 21:11
@T.E.D. Note that "planets" as defined by the Greeks originally included both the sun and the moon! — Gort the Robot, Mar 02 '21 at 23:25
Neato! The paragraph in question, along with your (or someone's) best crack at an English translation, would be a smashing addition (edit) to the question. — T.E.D., Mar 03 '21 at 00:08
Only one small problem: in the traditional view, there are seven continents. Though of course that depends on how you define a continent, but I can't think of any reasonable definition that would give you five of them. — jamesqf, Mar 03 '21 at 04:20
The Aztecs did not know # The Aztecs were geographically isolated from every other continent other than Latin America and North America. The magazine you reading was probably lying. the Aztecs must've not known that Africa or Europe existed. — Tardy, Mar 02 '21 at 18:21
@jamesqf the division into Europe/Asia/Africa is quite old (Anaximander, Hecataeus. Eratosthenes), and then N/S America? — Tomas By, Mar 03 '21 at 09:31
@Polygorial western European people knew the earth is round, but they didn't say so, because there was a risk of being burnt alive. Maybe the Aztecs had a similar tradition of agonising death for anyone who publicly disagreed with established religion. Because if you climb a mountain or a very tall building it's quite obvious. — RedSonja, Mar 03 '21 at 14:55
@jamesqf: Actually, the traditional number of continents is five in a lot of countries. I think they have Europe, Asia, Africa, the Americas, and Australia. I remember telling my uncle (Italian) that there are seven continents. He thought it was American-centric of me to consider North and South America as two, but I pointed out it would make more sense to consider Eurasia as one continent than the Americas. — Nick Matteo, Mar 03 '21 at 15:29
@RedSonja People were never burned for saying the Earth was round. That was the commonly accepted belief of the elites which included the catholic church. The "heresy" was in saying that the Earth was not the sphere at the center. — Gort the Robot, Mar 03 '21 at 16:54
@Tomas By: OK, there was a period of history, from the discovery of the Americas to the discovery of Australia (and later Antarctica) where five was a reasonable number. But since then, even if you consider Eurasia as one continent, the number's still 6, or 7 if you include Zealandia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealandia — jamesqf, Mar 03 '21 at 18:26
@jamesqf the Aztecs lived in America, so that period for them was 1000+ years (assuming they somehow heard about the three accross the Atlantic). — Tomas By, Mar 03 '21 at 23:39
@jamesqf: Coubertin came up with the five Olympic rings to symbolize the "5 continents". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_symbols#Rings — Flydog57, Mar 04 '21 at 00:35
@Polygorial Indeed, it is a common misconception about European among people who has little knowledge of history. However it is well documented that the shape and size of Earth was know in Europe and in the Muslim world (unlike in e.g China). However, I do not know any evidence that would show Aztecs knowing about the spherical earth, religious or scientific. Since more civilization missed this fact about Earth than who got right, “they didn’t know” is the default, just like Neanderthals most probably didn’t know time travel. — Greg, Mar 04 '21 at 05:40
By the way, is there any evidence of Aztecs sailing blue ocean? Because it is kind of hard to know about other continents, if no one is doing it... — Greg, Mar 04 '21 at 05:46
@jamesqf The common teaching in Germany (at least when I was in school 20 years ago) is 5 continents. Afrika, America, Asia, Australia, Europe. I believe this is quite the mainstream here. — Kami Kaze, Mar 04 '21 at 13:36
@Flydog57 &c: Yes, there are ignorant people in the world. Does this surprise you? — jamesqf, Mar 04 '21 at 16:18
Can you list two or three tomes on Aztec culture that you've read, and extrapolate what they had to say about knowledge of geography? — Robbie Goodwin, Mar 04 '21 at 22:09
@jamesqf the only ignorant thing here is you insisting that your arbitrary categorisation is the only valid one — llama, Mar 04 '21 at 23:22
Even if the number 5 was both correct and intended in a way which has some correspondence with the idea of continents, it would be very weak evidence of actual geographical knowledge. When a number is in the single digits, it is a very guessable number. Occam's razor would prefer a numerology explanation rather than a lost history of Aztec explorers mapping the world before the European age of exploration. — John Coleman, Mar 05 '21 at 11:21
As the OP and seeing certain comments, I need to restore a few things. I never hinted that there were five continents, nor that the Aztecs thought that way either. About the high unlikelihood of an worldwide Aztec geographical knowledge, I completely agree, I even said that it seemed absurd to me. The legitimacy of my question was based on the fact that I hadn't the material that could let me rigorously contradict what I read, and even if prove that something didn't happen, we can still get some elements on a subject and, as TED has succeeded in doing, understand the underside of things. — atrefeu, Mar 05 '21 at 16:27
@Greg: In fairness, it's theoretically possible for the Aztecs to have known about non-American continents because all of their ancestors would have traversed, at the least, Africa and (Eur)Asia en route to the Americas. That said, it would take one hell of an oral tradition to keep that knowledge alive for the 10,000ish years between when their ancestors left Asia and any form of writing developed to record the existence of said continents. — ShadowRanger, Mar 06 '21 at 01:09
@ShadowRanger In fairness, no recorded example that people has ever remembered where did they come from, and even less chance that they realize a place is a continent where 100s of them walked through the bushes. The Jews, migrating tribes of Europe, the Japanese, people of India have very vague recollection of even recent migrations, and even more vague idea where the migration was from. So no, I would definitely not count on anyone recalling they came from Africa 50 thousand years ago. — Greg, Mar 06 '21 at 01:42
@Greg: Yeah, I wasn't saying it was even vaguely approaching likelihood, but a cultural memory of "we came from another land" is possible, where a non-seafaring culture in Asia couldn't possibly know of the Americas. I agree it's insanely unlikely. I'm a little confused on you lumping Jews into this observation though, as, unlike the other categories you mentioned, their migrations occurred almost entirely during the period of written history, and were fairly well documented by a culture that had unusually high levels of literacy. Are you referring to the isolated Jews of Ethiopia and India? — ShadowRanger, Mar 06 '21 at 02:22
@ShadowRanger In spite of the rich written tradition, the Jewish migration form Egypt is sketchy at best. I brought it as an example that even cultures with thousands of years of (well researched and translated) written history are unreliable remembering the details of a great, nation defying migration. Of course, smaller diasporas like Jews of Ethiopia are even less aware of the details of their history. — Greg, Mar 06 '21 at 03:45

score 88 · Answer 1 · edited Mar 03 '21 at 12:32

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Do you know how many continents there are on Earth? (I don't!) Is Europe a separate continent from Asia? Is Australia the biggest island or the smallest continent? Is Antarctica an ice-locked archipelago or a continent? Are the Americas one continent or two? (All of those questions can be answered reasonably either way.)

The separation of Europe from Asia into two continents happened because, from the point of view of the Greek Mediterranean world, all of Asia that mattered was across the sea from all of Europe that mattered. They knew that Europe and Asia were connected north of the Black Sea (though they didn't know how big a connection) but they didn't care, because for their purposes, they were separate continents.

The idea of a continent is more a cultural thing than anything else.

(From a proper scientific point of view continents are probably better defined by tectonic plates so now you're dealing with twenty or so. Maybe a continent is a tectonic plate with dry land attached? That still leaves quite a few. (And how much dry land is needed? And is Los Angeles on a separate continent from New York?)

If the Aztecs knew the geography of the whole Earth it would still be very surprising if they had counted continents the same way the Ancient Greeks have led us to do.

And there's no evidence they knew the geography of the whole Earth and considerable evidence that they didn't.

edited Mar 03 '21 at 12:32

Fivesideddice

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answered Mar 02 '21 at 18:27

Mark Olson

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Wikipedia has a great illustration. – Schwern Mar 02 '21 at 19:09
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I don't know if posting video links is appropriate here, but this video gives a pretty entertaining overview of the continent conundrum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uBcq1x7P34. – gardenhead Mar 03 '21 at 04:14
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@Polygonal Further, if we allow continents to share a land border (as we do with Asia and Europe) why couldn't we count India as a continent too? -- it's at least as justified. Arabia is separated both tectonically and by water. Etc., etc.
It's really a case of drawing a bright line across a continuum and I tried to make the list long enough to illustrate the point and short enough to remain interesting.
– Mark Olson Mar 03 '21 at 14:54
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I don't think the question is about a specific number (as you say, continent boundaries are mostly arbitrary), but the idea that they knew the earth had multiple continents at all. – Barmar Mar 03 '21 at 15:08
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My initial interrogation was centered on the article which was mentionning a five flowers crowned head, so the number does count in that way. Still, the general question of the geographical knowledge of the Aztecs is exciting! – atrefeu Mar 03 '21 at 15:40
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This answer is being pedantic. The actual intent of the question is to ask whether or not the Aztecs knew of the existence of Europe, Asia, and Africa, not about the definition of the word "continent." The only part of this answer that addresses the actual question is the last sentence, "And there's no evidence they knew the geography of the whole Earth and considerable evidence that they didn't." But that sentence provides no evidence, which is what we are after. This answer could therefore be consolidated down into this "Probably not, but idk." That's not a good response. – kloddant Mar 03 '21 at 16:36
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How does this answer the question? Did the Aztecs know Europe/Asia/Africa existed? Australia? How much did they know about the Americas? Did they know about the artic and antartica? – James Haug Mar 03 '21 at 20:16
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@kloddant It addresses the idea that one can infer 5 flowers = 5 continents. It addresses the problem with the histography. – Schwern Mar 04 '21 at 05:22
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@kloddant I don't think it is pedantic at all. 5 continents is a rather arbitrary decision, based in no small part on the perspective of ancient Greeks. Separating Europe and Asia, for example, is a stretch, since they are connected by a pretty large chunk of mountains. So the fact that now school children learn "the five continents" is not by all means that the Aztecs would have divided the world the same way, even if they had accurate cartography of the world. – Davidmh Mar 04 '21 at 11:38
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This is kind of like asking if astronomers 50 years ago knew how many planets there are in the Solar System. – Barmar Mar 04 '21 at 16:38
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@kloddant The broader context of the question, literally the title as well as the "proof" is about the number of continents. Pointing out the arbitrary nature of the "proof" is not pedantic. If OP wants to improve the question, it is her/his job. Also, it is pretty hard to prove someone didn't know about something, generally, it goes the other way around. How do you prove that Neanderthal people didn't know about America? – Greg Mar 05 '21 at 09:38
"Do you know how many continents there are on Earth?" Yes. Most people do. They may not have the same definition of continent as you, but that's a different question. I agree, this answer is overly pedantic and addressing a separate question from the one asked. – TylerH Mar 05 '21 at 19:16

score 31 · Accepted Answer · answered Mar 03 '21 at 20:16

I was hoping that someone with better resources on Aztec mythology would speak up, but in absence of that, I'll tell you what I found looking into this online. Chief among it was that I could find nothing whatsoever backing up that interpretation of the five flowers, and lots saying it meant completely different things. Given that, my suspicion is that this is a misinterpretation of the source material on someone's part. If not yours, then the article authors' (or perhaps their source's).

Xochipilli is associated with both the Seven-flower (Chicomexōchitl) and Five-flower (Macuilxōchitl). The "Five" variant appears to be part of a series (of yes 5) of 5-named deities that are all associated with excess or pleasure. Sort of an Aztec analog to Christian culture's Seven Deadly Sins. The fives are Five-vulture, Five-lizard, Five-rabbit, Five-grass, and Five-flower. Five-flower in particular was associated with gambling and music.

The Aztecs did have a belief that there had been 5 Suns (taken literally, or "worlds" less literally), but they didn't think all existed simultaneously. Rather that the world had ended 4 times previously, and it was their sacred duty to prevent it happening a 5th time. There is no indication I can find that they believed there were currently other worlds out there.

Azetcs were also not a particularly maritime people. In fact their empire had noticeably little coastline, considering where it was, and their capital was about as far inland as you can get in Mesoamerica. Most of the archeologists specializing in their larger Nahua culture will tell you it likely originated in the Southwest American deserts to the north.

^{Aztec Empire in 1519}

So I'm not finding much support for the idea that they had any concept of whole other continents existing beyond their eastern and/or western sea, and given their cultural roots and outlook, it seems highly unlikely.

You were able to see the translation error from the beginning and your further explanation gave a better understanding of it, thank you! About the misinterpretation, I don't think that it could be mine because the passage is pretty concise and clear. The author or any of its sources, as you said, must have ran into some translation problems, some kind of Chinese whispering across time - and this magazine isn't considered to be very accurate here haha — atrefeu, Mar 03 '21 at 23:55

Did Aztecs know how many continents there are on earth?

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