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How the time synchronization was achieved in ancient Greece? The context of this question is about Eratosthenes and his calculation of the size of the Earth based on Sun casting shadows with different length and angle in the same time in two cities ~500 miles apart.

Glorfindel
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Didzis Lauva
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    Both measurements were taken at local noon - so no time synchronization was needed. It wasn't a proof of the Earth being round, as that was already well established - it was a calculation of the Earth's circumference. – Pieter Geerkens Sep 06 '18 at 14:47
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    Eratosthenes was trying to calculate the circumference of the Earth, not to prove that Earth was round. And he did so by measuring the sun's angle of elevation at noon, which did not require time to be synchronised between Alexandria and Syene - in other words, the idea was that if the sun was at different angles between the two cities when at its highest, and earth is spherical, then he could work out how big the sphere had to be to give the difference in angle he observed. – Semaphore Sep 06 '18 at 14:48
  • Thank you very much for clarifying details of this question and story! Nevertheless, circumference usually is used to describe round objects ;) – Didzis Lauva Sep 06 '18 at 14:59
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    Every educated person of the day knew the earth was spherical. His innovation was to do the actual legwork to attempt to calculate its size. – T.E.D. Sep 06 '18 at 15:00
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    T.E.D. thank you for editing that part of the question. – Didzis Lauva Sep 06 '18 at 15:05
  • You may also be interested in [HSM.SE] Stack Exchange. – gerrit Sep 07 '18 at 14:04
  • They had a meet, some sand clocks and they say: at the count of three. –  Sep 09 '18 at 03:16
  • BTW you can see the experiment repeated in middle America, with a truck here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRY2SkMTafc – DJohnM Sep 10 '18 at 04:11
  • @Semaphore my understanding is that one would need to stand in Alexandria and measure the angle of the shadow when it was noon in Serene (I feel like the cities not being east west oriented makes this complicated ) but without a clock of some kind how would one know when it was noon in Serene? – Hao S Sep 11 '18 at 17:09

3 Answers3

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In the particular case of Eratosthenes measuring the radius of the earth, it was done by observing the length of shadows at midday on the summer solstice, in cities that were north-south aligned (to within a few degrees). It was known that the sun was directly overhead on the solstice in the city of Syene in Egypt. But further north in Alexandria on the summer solstice the sun was not directly overhead.

So all he needed to do was identify which day the summer solstice fell on, which was a day that people had been able to determine since before recorded history it seems. Likewise recognising midday was no great difficulty.

You don't even need to do the measurements at the same time - you can do them on successive years if you want, and get the same result.

PhillS
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    Almost the perfect answer. I would add, in refutation of OP's claim, something to the effect that: "It wasn't a proof of the Earth being round, as that was already well established - it was a calculation of the Earth's circumference and/or diameter." – Pieter Geerkens Sep 06 '18 at 14:49
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    Also worth noting that Eratosthenes couldn't really hope for anything like modern precision, and there's still some debate about how close he really got. – T.E.D. Sep 06 '18 at 14:53
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    @PieterGeerkens - Good point, I missed that in the question. Yes, he wasn't trying to prove anything about the shape of the Earth. Every educated person of the day (and likely most mariners) already knew it was spherical. He was taking that as a given, and trying to use math to calculate its size. – T.E.D. Sep 06 '18 at 14:55
  • @PieterGeerkens PhillS sorry if two cities are north south aligned shouldn't the sun be directly overhead both cities at the same time? Also how would you measure summer solstice that accurately and how would you get the time/angle difference of the 2 cites – Hao S Sep 11 '18 at 17:04
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    @hao-sun yes, but the point is that you need to make the measurement at local noon in city A and local noon in city B, which is something that can be determined locally, without the need to synchronize anything. – PhillS Sep 11 '18 at 17:07
  • are they assuming the sun can only be directly overhead (that is reach the bottom of a well ) on the equator?
    then a=b-c I think https://ibb.co/nyLxEp
    Okay I see your calculating the narrower circumference of the earth which for north south doesn't require time synchronized     – Hao S Sep 11 '18 at 17:20
  • @HaoSun: Aswan is just about on the Tropic of Cancer not the Equator - which is why the sun is overhead only on the solstice. Of several measurements of shadow length taken around noon, the shortest is the noon measurement for that day. Repeated over several days near the solstice, the shortest of those *daily noon measurements* is the solstice measurement. – Pieter Geerkens Sep 11 '18 at 17:22
  • oh yes I forgot the slant of the earth my above question should read that the sun can only be directly overhead on the solstice b=0 also it should be a=c-b – Hao S Sep 11 '18 at 17:27
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    @HaoSun: Also the error by being off by a day is just under sin(1 degree) or roughly 1.7% – Pieter Geerkens Sep 11 '18 at 17:30
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To add to the answer of PhillS: there was essentially no method of exact time synchronization in two remote places before 17th century. The method of observation at noon at two places only works UNDER THE ASSUMPTION that the places are on the same longitude. The longitudes of Syene and Alexandria are approximately equal, which Eratosthenes knew (when traveling from A to S one faces South, this was probably his justification). Of course this argument can be only approximate.

In fact the time synchronization in different places is EQUIVALENT to the problem of determining longitude. The only general method that was available to the Greeks was observation of Lunar eclipses (which happen at the same time at different places). Except this method, which is also very rough and inconvenient, the general problem of finding longitude (=time synchronization) was not solved until 17 century when Jupiter satellites were discovered. And later, in 18th century two methods were developed: a) very precise observation of the Moon position with respect to the stars, and b) mechanical chronometer.

Alex
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    An excellent answer. But it should be Syene (Aswan, in Egypt), not Sienna (in Italy). – fdb Sep 08 '18 at 12:06
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As PhillS points out, the observations do not have to be made at the same time, but that flexibility is not limited to using observations on successive years, and, as Pieter Geerkens comments, observations at the local noon (either on the same day or the same date in different years of a solar-year calendar) are usable. In either case, however, what you do need is a reasonable measure of the north-south distance between the sites. In principle, this could be achieved by a combination of trigonometric surveying with astronomical measurements to establish the north-south direction. Both these techniques were well known to the ancient Egyptians, and it was the practice to re-survey Egypt annually, to re-establish boundaries after the floods [1], which gave Eratosthenes the distance, though he may have simply assumed that Syene was approximately due south of Alexandria.

Once you have a value for the circumference of the Earth, and assume it to be approximately spherical, you have sufficient information to determine the local-time offset between any locations linked by a reasonably accurate two-dimensioned survey, but the ancients did not really have any practical need for that information.

[1] - Ancient Surveying (Wikipedia)

A Raybould
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