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The origins of Romanians is, for me, one of history's more interesting problems and I mostly agree with the "Immigrationist theory".

The great mystery for me is how could they become the majority in Transylvania if not already there? They are now about 70% (2011 census). I did not found much around Internet: "The first official estimation to the demographic breakdown in Transylvania is the estimation of the the Austrian administrative authority (Verwaltungsgericht) from 1712-1713. According to that the population of Transylvania was 47% Hungarian, 34% Romanian and 19% Saxon. However this is not based on census data." (from Did Transylvania, historically speaking, belong to the Romanians or the Hungarians?) But there is no accurate data, I believe: Demographics and historical research (wikipedia).

My interest is pure historical, not political. Are there in the world situations when the original population was slowly replaced by immigrants?

Please help me articulate a good question.

Liviu
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    What is the mystery? Significant population changes following eg large migrations, war, diseases regularly happens in history. Settlers filling up the empty lands or certain ethnics having higher fertility than others are not unheard off. – Greg Jan 06 '17 at 16:28
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    @Greg could you be more specific? Diseases, wars affect everybody and there is no record of large Vlachs migration, to my knowledge. Higher fertility ... do you have some facts around? Or some examples as it "regularly happens in history" ? – Liviu Jan 06 '17 at 16:38
  • e.g the carpathian basin several times significantly depopulated (Mongolian invasion, 150 years Turkish occupation etc.) which was generally followed by invitation of settlers. Those people generally come from places that less effected by those wars - Transylvania was often a place like that. Settlers often left empty land behind, which was again filled up by others, so it potentially effects the whole region. That happened in many places and ethnicities in the Hungarian Kingdom. – Greg Jan 06 '17 at 16:49
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    Unless you live in the rift valley in Africa, your ancestors were immigrants at some point. – T.E.D. Jan 06 '17 at 19:12
  • @T.E.D. of course, but with the Dacians or some time later (more than half a century), the rival theory being Theory of Daco-Roman continuity? – Liviu Jan 06 '17 at 20:20
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    @Liviu - Yeah, I looked them both over. I could come up with good arguments either way, but its really a very minor difference. One side of the Danube or the other in a few hundred years (say 10 generations or so) during a dark period when there isn't a lot of written info to be had (so no sure way to decide). Probably best to assume either could be true, and go on our merry way until new info arrives. – T.E.D. Jan 06 '17 at 20:42
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    maybe it helps that Pál Teleki made a pretty precise ethnic map of Hungary in 1910. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Teleki_P%C3%A1l_1910-es_etnikai_t%C3%A9rk%C3%A9pe.gif – CsBalazsHungary Jan 06 '17 at 21:07
  • @T.E.D. New information won't arrive (maybe some genetics) and, as I said, I am mostly for the "Immigrants theory" because "Whereas whole Romania is entwined with conclusive geographical names which excludes any form of continuity there." (as Romanian, theoretically I should stay with the other :p) "In this light, the passionate discussion for or against Roman-Romanian continuity has been misled by a conception of ethnicity that is far too inflexible" - well, I do not agree, because language is inflexible :) - Hungarians or Germans or Bulgarians do not start speaking Romanian out of the blue. – Liviu Jan 06 '17 at 22:19
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    @T.E.D. You say "its really a very minor difference": I agree form the political point of view - it really means little today. Otherwise, from historical view, the differences are very important for me: each theory has its own problems, like this question by example. – Liviu Jan 06 '17 at 22:19
  • @CsBalazsHungary How could this help? The situation in the 19th century is already clear, see the last link (that's it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Transylvania#Historical_population) – Liviu Jan 06 '17 at 22:23
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    @Greg The Turks never occupied Transylvania (the only Hungarian territory where the Romanians are a majority) and the Mongolian invasion affected everybody, not only the Hungarians or the colonists (Saxons, Székelys). "That happened in many places and ethnicities in the Hungarian Kingdom." You affirm many things without any proof, sorry. – Liviu Jan 06 '17 at 22:28
  • This answer is related, and fun to read. Not a duplicate – Astor Florida Jan 07 '17 at 02:44
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    @axsvl77 "The Dacians were, at their origin, Thracians. So were the Trojans, and the survivors of Troy are known to be the founders of Rome." Very, very funny ... if it was not crazy! – Liviu Jan 07 '17 at 02:59
  • Here is Another One. I don't know enough about the debate. I might ask over in linguistics "what evidence is there that Romanian comes from Latin instead of sharing a common ancestor". I do think, however, that Western Europe has a long history of trampling other cultures' histories. – Astor Florida Jan 07 '17 at 03:28
  • @Liviu I never said the Ottomans ever occupied Transylvania, I was talking about Kingdom of Hungary, which was large part occupied on the plain. Mongol invasion did not effect Transylvania too much. Also, you are missing the whole point: different areas competing for workers with different option. If there is a large population drop in areas with developed agriculture, than people who see it as a better option will move. Life in the Carpathian, in Transylvania were harsher than in the plain. Not the burgers from towns, not the Szekelys with specials rights if they stayed, etc. – Greg Jan 07 '17 at 06:31
  • @Liviu By the way, what is the question? General examples where immigrants displaced local indogenous population? Like all the Americas, UK, Australia, Japan, China, Greece or all the Mediterranean, anywhere Arabic, most Russia..? What differentiate slow from fast (except that fast is generally much better documented therefore we know about them..)? Do Lombards, Visigoths, Franks and the other German tribes count? Do you factored in that most definitions about nations and ethnicity do not apply to anything before around 200 years ago (it was more about just religion)? – Greg Jan 07 '17 at 06:42
  • @Greg Americas, UK, Australia, most Russia: talking about different civilisations, the "superior" won; where did Arabs become majority? Israel :P ? Lombards, Visigoths, Franks: they were rather assimilated. Romanians and Hungarians have different religions, some suggest that in Transylvania some preferred the Turks to the Habsburg catholics – Liviu Jan 07 '17 at 22:04
  • @Greg anyway, I see we cannot talk on the subject – Liviu Jan 07 '17 at 22:04
  • It's not unusual for a previous people to remain in mountainous areas. IE the Basques, Welsh, Alans. Wasn't there a mountainous Romanian state which held out against the -I don't think Mongols- the Ottomans for a long time? – John Dee Aug 29 '17 at 22:09
  • I think you may not be looking so much for their origins, but what was left over after foreign conquests like Hungarians and Ottomans. So this would be much later history, like 1200-1600. – John Dee Aug 29 '17 at 22:43
  • This smacks of pseudohistory to me. There's very, very strong evidence for Thraco-Roman continuity with Slavic and to some extent Hungarian admixture. But the the Latinate Romanian language (and the name of the country!) exists in the present today should tell you a lot. – Noldorin Aug 30 '17 at 00:29
  • @John Dee Romania is much larger than Basques, Welsh, Alans. Alans? Only Transylvania is protected by mountains, Wallachia and Moldavia are easy accessible. Hungarians brought in foreign colonizers to protect Transylvania and they never leave it. Did you read a little bit the wikipedia article ? – Liviu Sep 19 '17 at 20:56
  • @Noldorin So you prefer the other theory, than good for you! – Liviu Sep 19 '17 at 20:59
  • @Liviu I was just pointing out, in other places the previous people retreated into the mountains, when new people came. – John Dee Sep 19 '17 at 21:19
  • I guess some people cannot change. The Wallacians/Romanian or Vlachs came from south of Danube. This is also related by the "Moldovian Chronicle" and " Descalecarea Tierei Romanesci de cindu au descalicatu Romanii" – Terry Dec 25 '17 at 21:14
  • @Terry - as you can see in the answers and comments here, the main idea is (1) we do not know for sure if they came to Transylvania from the south and when or not, and (2) we do not know how they became a majority if they came from the south (what the OP asks here). –  Dec 14 '18 at 23:02
  • Please help me articulate a good question. - Well, if you insist. You forgot to mention (or stress) the obvious: that Romanians became a majority without conquering the land beforehand, as is usually the case with the attempted counterexamples contained in the comments and answers to this question. – Lucian Jul 15 '19 at 14:32
  • Politically motivated Hungarian (ultra)nationalists are not the only ones to appeal to the Albanian-Romanian linguistic relationship, in order to justify their irredentist tendencies. Similar theories exist about Albanians as well, according to which they migrated southwards, to Albania, from the north, from Romania. Unsurprisingly, the ones usually proposing them are Slavic & Greek nationalists, espousing similar irredentist tendencies. – Lucian Aug 12 '22 at 12:40

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I don't think their current majority is an insurmountable problem for any immigration theory. At roughly the same time the coastal German tribes were migrating to England, and the southern Slavic people were migrating into the Balkans. Both are clearly a majority in those locations today.

My main problem with the immigrationist theory is that it (very very mildly) violates Occam's Razor. It doesn't really seem necessary to explain the facts we have, and simpler explanations are available.

But not that much simpler. The difference between the two basically boils down to which side of the Danube they were living on for a few hundred years. These are years which happened to be some of Europe's least literate years, so we don't really have any records to tell us which it was.

So in the end, it really could be either, and it wouldn't be a huge difference which.

T.E.D.
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  • Anyway, the immigration theory proposes a peaceful entry on the land of stronger forces by a Roman population without the backing of the Roman state. –  Aug 29 '17 at 23:30
  • The German comparison cannot work, but I agree that the differences between theories are small. –  Aug 29 '17 at 23:35
  • Are you sure the Germans are majority in England? How about Normans?
  • Are you sure Bulgarians are entirely Slavic? Maybe they are a strong mix, with Bulgars by exemple.
  • These two migrations are well known ... but there is no such large "Romanian" migration, no ?
  • "which side of the Danube they were living" ... What about Transylvania? So they were floating over Carpathians and the Saxons and the Székelys saw nothing ? No record about it?

    – Liviu Sep 19 '17 at 21:07
  • @Liviu - This comment was very confusing. However, yes, I'm quite sure Anglo-Saxons (iow: "the English") are a majority in England. I don't know how many people still speak Anglo-Norman, but it won't be many. – T.E.D. Sep 20 '17 at 02:35
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    @TED Nonsense "This version of history is now regarded by many historians as incorrect, on the basis of more recent genetic and archaeological research. Based on a re-estimation of the number of settlers, some have taken the view that it is highly unlikely that the British Celtic-speaking population was substantially displaced by the Anglo-Saxons and that instead a process of acculturation took place, with an Anglo-Saxon ruling elite imposing their culture on the local populations" QED – Liviu Sep 20 '17 at 21:53
  • @Liviu - Nothing inconsistent with that. Clearly the Anglo-Saxon culture essentially "won" though, because that's the language that is being spoken today. You own comment says as much (that's what "acculturation" means). Unless there's some kind of physical condition being discussed, the genetics of the matter don't concern me much in a historical discussion. – T.E.D. Sep 20 '17 at 22:10
  • @TED You said something else ("Both are clearly a majority"), but whatever. The problem is that Romanians didn't conquered Hungary, it was the other way around. You are suggesting that an unknown large force from the south assembled, passed Danube and Carpathians and conquered Transylvania when all the well known migrations preferred to go West. Do you have any proof? – Liviu Sep 21 '17 at 21:04
  • (I upvoted you only to try to hide a little bit the delirium that follows) – Liviu Sep 21 '17 at 21:06