15

How does the card Homeward Path work with cards like In Bolas's Clutches? Homeward Path would imply that you still get it back, but those types of effects continue as long as the creature is enchanted, at least from a surface level inpsection of the enchantment.

The Man
  • 3,672
  • 9
  • 34
  • 69

2 Answers2

12

Even though Homeward Path looks to have an instantaneous effect, it's actually continuous:

611.1. A continuous effect modifies characteristics of objects, modifies control of objects, or affects players or the rules of the game, for a fixed or indefinite period.

Since both continuous effects apply in layer 2:

613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.

you have to apply them in timestamp order:

613.2. Within layers 1–6, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first (see rule 604.3), then all other effects in timestamp order (see rule 613.6). Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer. (See rule 613.7.)

If Homeward Path is activated after In Bolas's Clutches is cast, the owner will get the creature back:

613.6. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp.

(quotes are from the Comprehensive Rules)

Glorfindel
  • 29,533
  • 7
  • 89
  • 137
  • I was just looking at this, but not sure if or why this is correct... 611 is dealing specifically with continuous effects, so the one-shot effect of Homeward Path wouldn't be covered under 613.1b - Layer 2. – GendoIkari Jan 08 '19 at 17:45
  • Further research seems to indicate that Homeward Path actually does create a continuous effect, not a one-shot effect. I'm not clear on how we can know this, however. – GendoIkari Jan 08 '19 at 17:47
  • Intuitively, it could be a one-shot effect; I'm going by the examples given in 610.1 and 611.1. – Glorfindel Jan 08 '19 at 17:47
  • Indeed, it looks like 611.1 is perhaps supposed to be read as saying that all effects that modify control of objects are continuous effects. – GendoIkari Jan 08 '19 at 17:48
  • 2
    aren't all control change effects continuous? They would have to be to change an objects characteristics? – Malco Jan 08 '19 at 17:48
  • 1
    @Malco I think that's the key, but the Rules do not explicitly state one-shot effects can't change characteristics (just that continuous effects do so). – Glorfindel Jan 08 '19 at 17:54
  • 1
    @Glorfindel Yes, until now I always thought that "you control target creature" was a continuous effect, while "gain control of target creature" was a one-shot effect. – GendoIkari Jan 08 '19 at 17:59
  • 1
    I just now realized you were two different people.... RE: "611.1. A continuous effect modifies characteristics of objects, modifies control of objects, or affects players or the rules of the game, for a fixed or indefinite period." is defining what a CE is, ie anything that mods charateristics/control of obj is a CE – Malco Jan 08 '19 at 18:02
  • 1
    Well ... almost. It's logically equivalent to "a cow has four legs and eats grass", which defines some properties of a cow. But a sheep is not a cow, and still has four legs and eats grass. – Glorfindel Jan 08 '19 at 18:10
  • true, but I don't think there is anything conflicting this in the CR (ie. something that changes obj characteristics that isn't a CE) – Malco Jan 08 '19 at 18:13
  • 1
    @Glorfindel, By the rules of logic, you are correct. However, 611.1 should indeed be interpreted to mean that all effects that match the criteria are continuous effects. (If there were one-shot effects that matched the criteria, they would have no effect since they're not mentioned in 613.) Therefore, all change of control effects are continuous effects. (Just confirming what was already said.) – ikegami Jan 09 '19 at 03:51
  • 1
    The exception is those that set the initial controller. For example, "put that card onto the battlefield under your control" is a one-shot effect ("put") that sets the initial characteristics. – ikegami Jan 09 '19 at 03:55
  • I think if we apply the rules for triggered abilities to this, it makes more sense. "603.1. Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. They are written as '[When/Whenever/At] [...]'". We use this rule to know that anything that starts with "When" or "Whenever" or "At" is a triggered ability. – GendoIkari Jan 09 '19 at 14:46
  • So pretty much, because both are only applied once, the Homeward Path effect would override the Bolas Clutches effect? It would stay enchanted, but return to the owner? – The Man Jan 09 '19 at 18:35
  • 1
    @ShadowZ. not quite... they aren't both only applied once, quite the opposite. They are both always applied continuously. Any time you need to see what an object currently looks like, you apply all the things that are affecting it, in a given order. In this case, to see who the controller is, you start with the normal rules (its owner is the controller), then apply Bolas's Clutches' effect, then apply Homeward Path's effect. End result is that is would stay enchanted, but be controlled by the owner. – GendoIkari Jan 09 '19 at 19:40
  • @Shadow Z., An example of what Gendolkari is saying in the previous comment: If the creature in the OP's scenario up is then captured by Rubinia Soulsinger, it will override the other two control-changing effects because it was created last. Once the effect ends (say if Rubinia is killed), Homeward Path's effect becomes the winner again (being the last-created existing effect) – ikegami Jan 10 '19 at 04:37
  • So what happens if Homeward Path leaves the battlefield? Its continuous effect ends and control reverts to whoever controls In Bolas' Clutches? – Nuclear Hoagie Jan 11 '19 at 15:33
  • No, it won't end, just like Donate's effect doesn't end when the spell ends up in the graveyard. – Glorfindel Jan 12 '19 at 08:41
  • Just found that this whole conversation already happened several year ago: https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/20995/djinn-of-infinite-deceits-interacting-with-other-control-changing-effects?noredirect=1&lq=1 – GendoIkari Feb 08 '19 at 19:07
  • If Homeward Path later is destroyed, does the player who controlled Homeward Path still gain control of the enchanted creature? (assuming the order of play was 1. Alice took Bob's elf creature using In Bolas's Clutches. 2. Bob used the ability of Homeward Path to regain control of the elf. 3. Alice destroys Homeward Path). Who will then control the elf? I think it is Bob, because the effect is still in play even though Homeward Path leaves the battlefield. – John Jul 23 '19 at 09:33
  • Yes, Homeward Path's ability produces a permanent effect which cannot be cancelled (not even when its owner leaves the game). It can be overwritten, with a newer control changing effect. – Glorfindel Jul 23 '19 at 09:53
3

Seems that the creature's owner would regain control of the creature, even though In Bolas's Clutches stays in play:

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/292336-homeward-path-mind-control

Both create continuous effects, the most recent effect is the one that's active.

Raj
  • 1,119
  • 9
  • 18