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Say I have a Blinkmoth Nexus and Steel Overseer out. I tap the Steel Overseer for his ability to put +1/+1 counters while my Blinkmoth is a creature, and it gains a counter. After my Blinkmoth goes back into a land, does it keep the counter, or does it lose it?

Rainbolt
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Mark Goncharov
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2 Answers2

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Lands (any permanent, really) can have +1/+1 counters just fine. In fact, Llanowar Reborn enters the battlefield with one! The counter(s) will not go away just because your blinkmoth stops being a creature.

Of course, the +1/+1 counter doesn't do anything until the land becomes a creature again, but the +1/+1 counter will still be there.

bengoesboom
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Brian S
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    Also, Raging Ravine. – Hao Ye May 23 '14 at 19:42
  • @Hao Ye, Raging Raving gets the +1/+1 counter when it's also a creature, just like the card the OP asked about. It doesn't help. – ikegami May 26 '14 at 16:38
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    But Raging Ravine doesn't stay a creature - if the rules made it so that +1/+1 counters were removed from non-creature permanents, Raging Ravine would be very awkward. – Hao Ye May 26 '14 at 18:38
  • @Hao Ye, Everything you said applies to the OP's creature too, so again, it's a useless example since it just repeats the question. Llanowar Reborn is a good example because it actually places a +1/+1 counter on a non-creature. – ikegami May 28 '14 at 15:17
  • @Ikegami: ?? OP's question isn't whether +1/+1 counters could be placed on non-creatures, it was what happens to +1/+1 counters on a permanent that stops being a creature. – Hao Ye May 28 '14 at 17:32
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    @Hao Ye, Exactly. Raging Ravine, like Blinkmoth Nexus, doesn't given any indication of what happens after it stops being a creature, while Llanowar shows that it's possible for the counters to exists on non-creatures. – ikegami May 28 '14 at 17:51
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    @ikegami: strictly speaking, you are correct, Raging Ravine doesn't say what happens to the +1/+1 counters when it stops becoming a creature, but it would be very silly for WotC to template the card that way (using temporary +1/+1 counters; Bounty of the Hunt excepted) – Hao Ye May 28 '14 at 23:23
  • @HaoYe Yes, non creatures being unable to have power changing counters would make Raging Ravine awkward, but then, M:TG has had it's share of awkward, being awkward doesn't mean they didn't do it. As for templating the card that way, if they had intended the counter to only last the turn, they could have given it +1/+1 when it attacked until end of turn. would function the same way without counter removal. Moot point of course because none of it works that way, but interesting to think about. – Andrew Jan 16 '18 at 18:42
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Yes, the permanent keeps the counters. Nothing causes them to be removed.

There are only three instances when counters are removed from objects by the rules:

  1. Dealing damage to a Planeswalker removes loyalty counters.
  2. SBAs cancel out +1/+1 and -1/-1 counter pairs by removing them.
  3. SBAs remove extra counters when a permanent has a limit to how many of a given kind of counters it can have.

That's it. Counters are never removed from objects except in those circumstances or by abilities that instruct you to move or remove them[1].

There's definitely no restriction about which type of counters can be on which type of objects.

  • You can have +1/+1 counters on non-creatures.
  • You can have charge counters on non-artifacts.
  • You can have flood counters on non-lands.
  • You can even have counters on non-permanents!

When an object changes zone, it ceases to exist, and so do any counters on that object. They are physically removed from the physically object (because they ceased to exist in the game), but they are not removed from the object as far as the game is concerned. Abilities that would trigger on counter removal don't trigger, for example.

121.2. Counters on an object are not retained if that object moves from one zone to another. The counters are not “removed”; they simply cease to exist. See rule 400.7.

  1. This includes three keyword abilities that remove counters:

    • Fading (fade counter)
    • Suspend (time counter)
    • Vanishing (time counter)
ikegami
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  • What's an example of #3? (Though I just looked up 704.5s) – GendoIkari May 28 '14 at 15:13
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    @Gendolkari, "Rasputin can't have more than seven dream counters on it." Might be the only case. Something other than Rasputin with more than seven dream counters would have to become Rasputin for the SBA to kick in. – ikegami May 28 '14 at 15:18
  • Interesting, I would have thought that "Rasputin can't have more than seven dream counters on it." would have prevented the "put a dream counter on it" text from working in the first place, since "can't" always takes precedence. – GendoIkari May 28 '14 at 15:22
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    @GendoIkari, It does. Something other than Rasputin with more than seven dream counters would have to become Rasputin for the SBA to kick in. (This sentence was added to my last comment, but I guess you missed the update.) – ikegami May 28 '14 at 15:25
  • Clockwork Avian is another example. Sorry, I can't link to the Gatherer because it is currently down for maintenance. – Rainbolt Jun 12 '14 at 18:40
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    @Rainbolt clockwork beast/clockwork avian don't work like Rasputin. They can't have more than 7 (or 4, respectively) counters granted by their own ability, but nothing is preventing other abilities (like proliferate) from adding more counters – chiliNUT May 14 '17 at 19:30
  • @ikegami wouldn't a "example #4" of when the game rules remove counters be if a permanent changes zones? One funky card even allows this to happen, the very cool Skullbriar, the walking grave(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=236485) – chiliNUT May 14 '17 at 19:39
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    @chiliNUT, That causes the object to cease to exist. The counters cease to exist along with the object, but they are never removed from the object. Abilities that would trigger on counter removal don't trier. Sb's ability moves the counters to the new object. – ikegami May 14 '17 at 19:41
  • @ikegami the first part makes sense to me, they don't get removed so much as they just cease to exist. the second part sounds like, sb becomes a new object when it changes zones, and the counters get reattached to that new object? – chiliNUT May 14 '17 at 19:46
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    @chiliNUT, Well, "move" wasn't the right word for me to use, so neither is "re-attached". The new Sb object gets created with the same counters as the old Sb object had. They don't get re-attached so much as new-Sb was created with the counters on it. – ikegami May 14 '17 at 19:50
  • @ikegami got it; i didn't realize moving zones is tantamount to "creating a new object," can you refer me to the section from the comprehensive rules that describes that? – chiliNUT May 14 '17 at 21:08
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    @chiliNUT, Indeed. It's one of the key rules of MTG. "400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. [...]" – ikegami May 14 '17 at 21:10
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    @chiliNUT, CR 121.2. Counters on an object are not retained if that object moves from one zone to another. The counters are not “removed”; they simply cease to exist. See rule 400.7. – ikegami May 16 '17 at 04:40