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So my question is that since we are transitioning through a class E surface area, do we need an SVFR clearance? Part 91.155(c) is not applicable since we are not beneath the ceiling of 1000 ft; however, Part 155(d) states that we cannot enter the traffic pattern of controlled airspace unless we have 3SM visibility or greater. That being said, what dictates how big a traffic pattern is and would ensure we didn't enter it?

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quiet flyer
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Wes
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  • My understanding is that it is considered good for "accessibility" (e.g. vision-impaired people using screen readers) if as much as possible of the relevant information is actually included in the text, not only in pictures-- e.g. the printed material at the top of the picture-- – quiet flyer Mar 29 '22 at 17:53

1 Answers1

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Your question: (in pertinent part) ...since we are transitioning through a class E surface area, do we need a SVFR clearance?

and;

Part 91.155(d) states that we cannot enter the traffic pattern of controlled airspace unless we have 3SM visibility or greater. That being said, what dictates how big a traffic pattern is and would ensure we didn't enter it?

Answer: 14 CFR § 1.1 - General definitions: Traffic pattern means the traffic flow that is prescribed for aircraft landing at, taxiing on, or taking off from, an airport.

Since, according to your question, you are only "transitioning" through a class E surface area you are not landing at, taxiing on, or taking off, from an airport (i.e., not entering a traffic pattern). Consequently, you are not bound by any limitations specified in FAR 91.155(d) and do not need a SVFR clearance.

Note: FAR 91.155 (d) states:

Except as provided in § 91.157 of this part, no person may take off or land an aircraft, or enter the traffic pattern of an airport, under VFR, within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport -

(1) Unless ground visibility at that airport is at least 3 statute miles; or

(2) If ground visibility is not reported at that airport, unless flight visibility during landing or takeoff, or while operating in the traffic pattern is at least 3 statute miles.

(emphasis is mine)

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    Agreed, though I've heard a high-level staffer in the FAA Flight Standards division state that the reported conditions at the airport should be considered to be "controlling" as to whether or not a SVFR clearance is needed for VFR flight in a Class E "surface area"--! – quiet flyer Mar 28 '22 at 11:52
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    I guess a core question here is whether the phrase "enter the traffic pattern" means only to "begin flying the traffic pattern" or could also mean to "pass through the area covered by the traffic pattern", in which case we're left wondering how big the "traffic pattern" should reasonably be considered to be. In the particular case of the test question, the aircraft is unambiguously above the traffic pattern, but the ASE question also asks about the size of the traffic pattern. – quiet flyer Mar 28 '22 at 12:21
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    Also, I've recently seen a (possibly recently posted) ASE answer or comment, can't remember which, from an air traffic controller stating that when the airport went "below VFR minimums", they "closed the entire Surface Area". So it appears that some controllers do not conform to the letter of the regs here. Wish could remember link as would like to bring the present question/answer to that person's attention to see if they would like to submit their own contrary answer. – quiet flyer Mar 28 '22 at 12:37
  • Those are precisely the thoughts going on in my head quiet flyer! I even looked at a few of your questions to try and help answer mine before I posted. – Wes Mar 28 '22 at 13:05
  • That’s a very good question I guess more than 1 way to skin a cat – Wes Mar 28 '22 at 14:25
  • @quietflyer - I think to be “in the pattern” you have to be actually flying the pattern. If you are merely in airspace that other pilots are using while they are in the pattern then you are not in the pattern then you are in the wrong place and certainly intruding into airspace you probably shouldn’t be in but you are still not “in the pattern”. – Jim Mar 28 '22 at 14:29
  • @quietflyer if the op had less than 3 mi flight vis and was "transitioning" (not entering the traffic pattern) a SVFR clearance would be required. –  Mar 28 '22 at 17:10
  • @Jim -- I expect that that is indeed the usual interpretation. – quiet flyer Mar 28 '22 at 19:36
  • @757toga - re my comment "Also, I've recently seen a... ASE answer or comment, can't remember which, from an air traffic controller stating that when the airport went "below VFR minimums", they "closed the entire Surface Area". " - I was mis-remembering, it was your own comment (your second one) here- https://aviation.stackexchange.com/a/49105/34686 - in a case where your own departure airport was clearly w/i basic Class E minimums but towered airport was not, would you still have been expected to get a SVFR clearance to fly? And if so, in your current view was this the correct expectation? – quiet flyer Mar 29 '22 at 13:22
  • @quietflyer my comment referenced and linked in your comment above reflected our understanding of the "Control Zone" and SVFR regs as they existed at the time (almost 50 years ago). When the wx was reported (by a FSS located at the primary airport about 3 mi away) it was considered as applying to the entire Control Zone. The "an airport" verbiage in current 91.155d says what it says (does not specifically state the "the airport for which the surface area is designated" as you have pointed out). –  Mar 29 '22 at 15:52
  • @757toga -- would like to clarify, in the past situation you were describing, did your airport lie outside of the "Airport Traffic Area" of the towered airport, and thus you did not normally need to communicate with the tower? Even though it was in (an extended portion of) the "Control Zone" around the towered airport? Does that pretty much sum it up? Thanks -- – quiet flyer Mar 29 '22 at 15:57
  • @quietflyer as I recall we were located just inside the airport traffic area and at the edge of the extension. During VFR conditions we did not communicate with the twr (by agreement) as as long we did not operate east of our runway (the primary airport was about 3-4 nm east). If the Control Zone was IFR/IMC we would call the twr or when the twr was closed call the TRACON for an SVFR or IFR clearance. It was almost 50 years ago, so this is the my best recollection. –  Mar 29 '22 at 16:24
  • @757toga -- got it, thanks – quiet flyer Mar 29 '22 at 16:25