42

I was on a Ryanair flight this morning that seemed to perform an incredibly aggressive takeoff from London Stansted on a 737-8. Takeoff was fairly fast, but the climb was the steepest I ever encountered.

For context, we were taking off from runway 22, with wind 34 kt from the South/Southwest gusting 51 kt Here is the flight profile

Machavity
  • 5,993
  • 2
  • 28
  • 57
Jon Bates
  • 545
  • 1
  • 4
  • 10
  • 6
    Perception is one thing, but in reality the flight is very unlikely to have been much different from any other flight. Modern aircraft operate within quite limited ranges of performance so there really is very little room to change how a takeoff is done from flight to flight. – 60levelchange Feb 09 '20 at 15:00
  • 5
    Sure, I had no objective data, but it felt insane and people were getting upset. I'm guessing as @deltaLima said, the wind added a lot of welly – Jon Bates Feb 09 '20 at 16:27
  • It’s hard to judge how aggressive the actual takeoff was from this data. One contributing factor to the perception of aggressiveness is whether noise abatement procedures are required at Stansted. Pilots may be required to fly higher than normal Traffic Pattern Altitude as quickly as possible. Another factor is the 50 knot headwind. If this was surface or low level wind, it would affect the angle of climb. You would get to altitude in a shorter horizontal distance. – Dean F. Feb 09 '20 at 17:38
  • It looks normal to me. I look at flight radar all the time, and I’m about 2 hours east of San Francisco. I’m right before the mountainous terrain. I see flights that are currently above me and say “departed 9 minutes ago” from San Fran intl, and they’re well above 25,000FT at this point. I’ve even seen some that are already in cruise. – George Clooney In a Mooney Feb 10 '20 at 02:06
  • 7
    I assume you meant to say a 737-800 - the 737-8 hasn't returned to service yet. – Vikki Feb 10 '20 at 03:06
  • 18
    If you flew in a 737-8, that was indeed aggressive, since they're currently still grounded worldwide and are likely to continue to be so for the next few months at least. – reirab Feb 10 '20 at 03:33
  • 8
    Note when your flight took off we were in the middle of what has been reported as "Storm of the Century" (By UK standards, anyway). – Jamiec Feb 10 '20 at 08:43
  • 3
    @Jamiec Agreed, this is probably related to the weather conditions which is somewhat covered by DeltaLima's answer. – Mast Feb 10 '20 at 10:37
  • 4
    I live and work in Cambridge, about 30 miles north of Stansted. There's a major air museum about halfway between (at Duxford), just off the motorway connecting Cambridge and Stansted. The motorway has been closed since last night because the wind has seriously damaged a hangar, and there is a high risk of large pieces of hangar (and potentially the exhibits!) getting blown into 70mph traffic. It's been that windy. The manoevre you experienced is commonly known as "getting the hell out of Dodge". :) – Graham Feb 10 '20 at 15:02
  • @JonBates What is "welly"? – Michael Feb 10 '20 at 17:51
  • 2
    @Michael I think it is an expression that comes from the Wellington boot. I this context 'welly' is slang for 'a lot of energy', meaning basically it was given a good kick with the boot. But maybe the fine people at english.stackexchange.com can answer your question for you. – DeltaLima Feb 10 '20 at 18:51
  • 2
    @DeltaLima spot on - it refers to the delicacy of control possible while wearing welly boots... – user_1818839 Feb 10 '20 at 19:38
  • Datapoint only: Long ago I took the only flight out of NZ's notoriously windy Wellington (Rongotai) airport when a very major storm closed all sea, air and road (even) access for some days. I'd booked on multiple flights all day and each was then cancelled outright (rather than delayed as usual) and being on hand had managed to book the next flight, alo without success . At about 8pm they said one flight MAY get out. ... – Russell McMahon Feb 11 '20 at 02:57
  • ... We walked to the aircraft (airbridge otherwise always used at Wellington). The pilot advised that he would sit at the end of the runway and wait and if an opening cam take it ! :-). He advised it would be a very rough ride in the circumstances. He did not mention steep :-). Go! Funnest aircraft ride I ever had. It felt near vertical (an illusion) - I have been in 100++ commercial flights and nothing else ever came close. We gained the impression of almost lying back in our seats. Nonbody complained, given the circumstances. Sole aircraft out in days. Maybe he was a Ryanair pilot :-). – Russell McMahon Feb 11 '20 at 02:57
  • 1
    Go fly a kite. Not being cheeky; I mean that quite literally - go fly a kite and you will realise immediately what was happening. The headwind is increasing with height, therefore lift and so rate of climb increases with altitude. This leads to the dramatic swoop up into the air that is characteristic of kite-flying and your flight, apparently. – Oscar Bravo Feb 11 '20 at 07:22
  • @OscarBravo If that's the case, why didn't it stall? – Cloud Feb 12 '20 at 11:29
  • @Cloud The answer below from DeltaLima says it all. I just wanted to summarise it (wind varies with height) and get in the fly-a-kite joke. I guess it didn't stall because if the airspeed increases you can increase the AoA. – Oscar Bravo Feb 12 '20 at 11:51

5 Answers5

116

Your flight took off during a storm. During a storm, the wind speed close to the surface of the earth is much lower than the wind speed a bit higher up. This variation of wind speed over a short vertical distance is called wind shear. The aircraft is taking off into the wind, so during the initial climb the headwind increases. Increasing headwind during climb does miracles to the climb rate.

Suppose you want to climb from sea level to 2000 feet while increasing the true airspeed from 140 to 160 knots (70 m/s to 80 m/s). In steady wind conditions that means the aircraft needs to accelerate 20 knots during that climb, which consumes part of the energy available from the engines.

But if there is a windshear and the headwind is increasing by 30 knots during that climb (not unreasonable in stormy conditions), the ground speed will reduce by 10 knots. Instead of needing to add kinetic energy, the aircraft needs to reduce it by converting it into potential energy (altitude). This means more energy is available for climbing and thus the climb rate is higher.

The wind reports from the airport at the time of take-off showed a wind of 29 knots (39 knots gusts), almost straight down the runway.

If you look at the wind profile this morning (I could not access yesterday's data anymore) you see that the wind increases from 20 kts at the surface to 51 knots at 3000 ft. That's a lot of free airspeed the aircraft gets during climb!

Monday morning surface wind @ EGSS

source: screenshot from windy.com

Monday morning 3000 ft @ EGSS

source: screenshot from windy.com

In addition, the effect of a stormy headwind is that the ground speed is relatively low. This makes the climb much steeper than in the no-wind condition.


Looking a bit closer at the raw data from FR24, the aircraft took off at 131 knots groundspeed (the first airborne report is 25 ft above the runway). 6 seconds after the first airborne ADS-B report, the altitude had increased by 525 ft. Even if we conservatively assume it took 7 seconds to climb to 500 ft (round-off errors), it requires a vertical acceleration over 1.6 g to achieve that. That must have felt very aggressive!

The first 2000 ft of climb took only 25 seconds, an average of 4800 ft per minute. The ground speed reduced to 119 knots by the time the aircraft had climbed 2800 ft, 37 seconds after take-off.

After that, the aircraft had climbed through most of the boundary layer of the earth and the windshear reduced. The rest of the climb was fairly typical.


It was not only your perception; by all means it was an impressive take-off performance for a B738

DeltaLima
  • 83,202
  • 11
  • 272
  • 366
  • 5
    Superbly explained post, thanks! – Fattie Feb 11 '20 at 12:05
  • Right, until that wind boost proves temporary and reverses, at which point it does miracles for sink rate. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Feb 11 '20 at 13:33
  • So why don't storms / strong winds (such as this case) cause aerodynamic stalls more often (and consequently lots of.. incidents?) – Cloud Feb 12 '20 at 11:37
  • See my comment below for why it does not cause stalls fir the big jets. – Stan Feb 12 '20 at 12:10
  • And another comment here- the aircraft is very light, probably taking off into a storm- so its a major factor as well. – Stan Feb 12 '20 at 12:10
  • I think can just imagine a Ryanair employee going "heck yeah" when thinking of all the fuel saved when he heard about the storm. (And also someone else thinking just the same for environmental reasons...) – Jasper Feb 12 '20 at 23:16
15

Sometimes a departing airplane will receive or be offered an accelerated climb profile from ATC which gets it up and out of the published approach and departure patterns quickly. If the pilot elects to take the profile, the resulting climb will be unusual, and spectacular.

I was on a Rockwell SabreLiner departing from San Jose, Ca in a very lightly-loaded condition some years ago when the pilot was offered this, and he took it- and warned us about how steeply we would be climbing. I was in one of the rearward-facing seats and looking backwards out the window next to me I was treated to a stunning view of downtown San Jose below us while basically hanging from my seat belt during our climbout.

It was fun.

niels nielsen
  • 21,023
  • 2
  • 40
  • 74
7

It appears that it took the pilot about 15 mins to climb from near sea level to FL370. That's a climb rate of about 2500 feet/min, which is a pretty modest climb rate for a jet. If you're looking for fast climb rates in a transport, check out Lear 35s. If given an unrestricted climb to cruise altitude, they will often do 5000+ feet/min!

Romeo_4808N
  • 73,674
  • 7
  • 150
  • 274
  • Good point, Carlos. Way to do the math on that one. I think most of us were focused on the OP’s subjective perception and not on the raw numbers. Always trust your instruments (and verify with a cross check). – Dean F. Feb 10 '20 at 05:12
  • 22
    Looking at the climb to FL370, everything seems normal. Looking at the climb to 2000 ft AAL which only took 25 seconds, you see the rate is 4800 feet/min on average after leaving terra firma, with 500 feet climb in just the first 6 seconds. That is impressive for the B738. – DeltaLima Feb 10 '20 at 10:05
  • I don’t see anything out of the ordinary here. They may have executed a more aggressive climb but it’s well within the 737’s capabilities. – Romeo_4808N Feb 10 '20 at 13:39
  • 12
    @CarloFelicione being within the capabilities of the plane does not define whether it was normal or not - and 100ft/s is not normal! – Tim Feb 10 '20 at 15:40
  • makes me wonder what newer Learjets like the 60 or the 75 could do on an unrestricted climb. I know they are bigger, so even with more powerful engines that characteristic could change. – Paul TIKI Feb 10 '20 at 21:36
1

A bit more elaborated answer gathered from my comments above: First of all- what do you mean by aggressive- Shaky? fast? high pitched?

If the headwind is stable- it changes the Ground speed at which the plane rotates, making it lower. After that, the aircraft climbs at the same pitch angle as always, once it transitioned to the stage of acceleration from V2. What does change a lot is the rate of climb per distance, nor per time. The situation is different if it is gusty- then the scenario is that it's all very bumpy, and planes do trade a bit of speed for pitch due to the logic of the aircraft flight algorithm- constant thrust, changing pitch. It will be elaborated further down the answer.

If it's unstable at low alt, maybe they maintained a high pitch, low speed, flaps down climb to clear the turbulent air (they just maintained a lower speed all the way out of the boundary layer). Finally, maybe they performed a full thrust take off- which is sometimes performed when wind shear is predicted, resulting in a very steep pitch after take off for such a light plane (1-hour flight).

If the wind changes and adds additional 30 knots of headwind in an instance- and stays there- meaning another stable mass of air- the pitch will become higher but only until the aircraft loses the energy it gained from the pitch up- after which it will retain it's original attitude and continue climbing with the same rate of climb- because after some time the pitch angle wouldn't hold the speed as the aircraft transitions to flying in the new "air mass".

Elaborating on the concept of fixed thrust: These aircraft are built in a way that they maintain a uniform setting of thrust throughout the whole duration of the climb, decided after their performance calculations. Meaning- if there is a change in a headwind- they will pitch a little bit higher. This is possible due to the logic of the machine that rotates and keeps a velocity higher than V2, which is the safe airborn speed- meaning there is a margin.

Next: as for sudden decreasing headwinds- the aircraft always corrects it's pitch accordingly, and they are not as edgy as little light planes. Finally- the pilots can always lower the nose or apply more thrust or both. In addition- when conditions prevail that dictate the usage of wind shear conditions in the calculations- the aircraft is rotated at a higher velocity than the normal V2, giving it further margin, and they usually use flaps 20 (or the equivalent in an airbus which I am not familiar with) in order to support further fluctuations in wind speed. All in all- the aircraft has margins.

As for the actual technique the plane maintains pitch- I would assume that it has its barriers and the fluctuations in attitude are gentle enough in order not to get to high or low exactly for the reason you mentioned above. If you maintain a constant pitch attitude- you can also exceed the flaps speed. Final note- when encountering a real wind shear- 15 knots deviation, 5 degrees of pitch fluctuation, 1 dot of GS deviation, 500 FPM vertical speed deviation, the pilots would engage the wind shear maneuver- meaning TOGA (initiating a sequence of actions that are built to sustain a wind shear situation), full thrust to maintain possitive vertical speed until clear.

I hope this is not too technical, will be happy to explain everything. I you understand the reason the aircraft acted the way it acted- maybe you will be able to point out exactly how it felt.

Stan
  • 443
  • 3
  • 7
  • Thanks. I'm a (lapsed) PPL(a). To answer your questions, its hard to remember exactly, but the perception was of a steep, high-g climb-out with low-moderate turbulence. The exact timing is more subjective I'm afraid, and I forget whether it was immediately after rotation, or a little later on, but it lasted maybe 10-20 seconds – Jon Bates Feb 12 '20 at 12:04
  • 1
    So my guess would be full thrust TO, with flaps down climb to a higher altitude to escape all the winter down closer to earth. But again- only a guess. – Stan Feb 12 '20 at 12:06
-1

It was due to the wind shear. Wind shear creates a vector gradient. If the vector gradient direction is upward in the head you'll get additional vertical force for lifting and its magnitude is larger than the downward force in the tail. That's why it's called wind shear because the wind applies a shear force to a flying body (in this case airplane). That's will happen only when the high-speed wind is heading towards your plane and your plane take off with a rotational velocity (Vr) designed for a steady condition. As force can be modeled as a rate of change of momentum over time it makes sense that you get a sudden steep climbing pattern because the momentum of your plane has been increased.

Wind shear is classified as an atmospheric disturbance. Therefore, it is correlated directly to the flight qualities. You can check the table in Flight Dynamic Principle Chapter 14 to see the relationship. As long as you can maintain control there will be no problem. For the passenger's complaint, they have the right to complaints as a part of the whole system. A complaint is a gift to improve the overall system the airlines, the pilot skills, and the aircraft manufacturers.

The only thing to be concerned from your case is communications. You should get a weather report before take off. Someday, this communication issue can be reduced by visualizing the wind. I guess everybody would be happy if we are able to see the wind shear. Some airports have the technology to visualize wind shear. It's just the implementation of the Tyndall effect (at least for a while). Maybe in the future, everyone will able to see the wind shear using 3D light technology. The plasma emission technology is the one and only 3D light that we have today and it's dangerous. The plasma emission phenomenon near the cloud full of static electric charge will transform your Airplane to a giant spark plug. For now, just trust the pilot they're trained well. If you're a pilot just trust the aircraft manufacturers they've been work so hard to keep everybody safe and of course, communicate well with the ATC & ground staff.

  • 1
    Only your first sentence has something to do with the question, and saying "it's like someone else said" is not really an answer. The rest is totally unrelated to the question. – Bianfable Aug 30 '20 at 10:12
  • @Bianfable thank you for your constructive comment. I already edit my answer according to your comment. – Willy satrio nugroho Aug 30 '20 at 12:31