Can the A380 ferry an extra engine, like the 747?

Question

A useful little quirk about the 747 is that it can ferry a fifth engine on the wing, for when another aircraft is stranded somewhere in the world.

Does the A380 have the same capability? If not, how would an airline manage an aircraft needing a new engine whilst away from a maintenance base?

Two documents mention ferrying (on 3 engines: 3EFF): type certificate and Operational Suitability Data (OSD) for the Airbus A380 Family - A380-800, so I guess it's allowed. No info on ferrying with 4 engines. — mins, Jan 06 '16 at 07:04
@mins, ferrying an airplane with one engine inoperative and ferrying a fifth engine on an airplane are two rather different things (and ferrying might not be the appropriate search term for the later). — Jan Hudec, Jan 06 '16 at 09:04
Funny that we have these other questions that are related, but not the same How do you repair a grounded aircraft at a remote location? How are off-wing jet engines transported? What are the requirements of ferrying a spare engine? — SMS von der Tann, Jan 06 '16 at 12:33
To be more specific about the special conditions that apply when ferrying an engine on the A380, see requirements "G-06 SC: Ferrying one engine unserviceable" page 297 of Explanatory Note to TCDS EASA.A.110–Airbus 380. Those conditions were the base for delivering the type certificate. — mins, Jan 06 '16 at 18:34
I just saw in the news that a Quatas B747 with Registration VH-OHS just did an engine ferry for another 747 today. http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/roo-tales/that-time-when-we-strapped-an-extra-engine-on-to-a-jumbo/ — SMS von der Tann, Jan 06 '16 at 21:56
Is the fifth engine place holder only on one wing? Is it not logical to provide slots on both wings for better stability? — Firee, Jan 07 '16 at 11:26
it's only on one wing. There is very rarely a need to ferry one engine, let alone two, so no need for a placeholder on the other wing. Not all 747-400s can ferry an engine, it's an optional extra that must be selected when ordering the aircraft - and Qantas is the only airline to have asked for this ability to be fitted. (I believe all 747-100/200/300s had the ability though). This is the first time they have ferried an engine for 5 years. — Gavin Coates, Jan 08 '16 at 09:56
Information (maybe) only: A friend recently commented on a QANTAS 747 Ferry flight with an extra engine. He said he knew a passenger on the flight which said it was much slower than usual and they added an extra stop (at Perth). It was from West side of Australia to Africa and then ???.He said it took 12 hours - how long usually I know not but apparently 12 hours was beyond exceptional. . — Russell McMahon, Jan 09 '16 at 03:06
@RussellMcMahon: Not surprising, given how much drag a non-functioning engine creates. — Vikki, May 02 '18 at 23:41

score 47 · Accepted Answer · edited Jan 07 '16 at 16:26

One of the main reasons the 747 was given the ability to ferry an engine was due to the lack of large cargo aircraft available at the time.

Don't forget the 747 was a major game changer when it came out, it was designed to replace the 707/DC-8, and was almost twice the size of these aircraft. As a result, there just wasn't anything available to transport a 747 engine by air if needed.

This was a major problem that had the potential to affect sales of the aircraft, and so they had to find a solution to this. It wasn't until the 747 began to be introduced as a cargo carrier that it was possible to transport these engines by air, in the hold of an aircraft.

With the introduction of the A380, there was no need to add engine ferry capabilities, as large cargo aircraft were common enough to transport them.

Manager: We need the ability to move engines not in use. Engineer: How do we carry the engines that are in use? Manager: On the wing. Engineer: put it on the wing then. Manager: ¯\(ツ)/¯ — corsiKa, Jan 06 '16 at 16:45

score 21 · Answer 2 · answered Jan 06 '16 at 11:36

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The A380 does not appear to have the capability to transport an extra engine under the wing. Higher engine reliability combined with widespread availability of air cargo transport makes this option redundant in modern jets.

In case engines are needed for an A380, they can be transported in a 747-400 Freighter* or the aircraft can be flown with three engines.

*Trent 900 can be transported in a 747-400F without disassembling. For Engine Alliance GP7000, you'll need an An-124.

answered Jan 06 '16 at 11:36

aeroalias

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I'd disagree with the "The aircraft can be flown with three engines" which suggests the flight would be conducted with a failed engine. That wouldn't happen: your source describes an engine failure in flight, which is a very different scenario to your suggestion that it would take off with an inoperative engine. – Jon Story Jan 06 '16 at 14:39
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@JonStory A380 can takeoff with three engines- see mins comment above in the question. – aeroalias Jan 06 '16 at 15:01
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It's physically possible, sure, and I didn't disagree with that.... but it's not acceptable procedure. It can take off on 3 engines if one fails after V1. That doesn't mean an A380 would ever deliberately take off on 3 engines in normal use. The pilot who did that, wouldn't be a pilot for very long. The A380 is designed to take off with one engine out for safety reasons if the engine fails during takeoff: but if you try to take off on 3 engines, you no longer have that safety margin if another engine fails. An A380 would never attempt a takeoff knowing one engine was inoperative. – Jon Story Jan 06 '16 at 15:18
The article about the An-124 states that bigger engines can be transported in smaller cargo aircraft if partially disassembled. Since there are only about two dozen AN-124's in commercial service, how long does getting one scheduled for a special flight compare with the time needed to de/reassemble an engine that was sent via a regularly scheduled freight flight? – Dan Is Fiddling By Firelight Jan 06 '16 at 16:46
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@JonStory I'm not sure about the A380, but I do seem to recall Terry stating that there were approved procedures on the 747 for repositioning flights with one engine inop. I would assume that said procedures involved an empty aircraft with much lower than normal takeoff weights. Remember that the normal single engine failure on takeoff requirements are assuming MTOW. – reirab Jan 06 '16 at 17:37
Hence why I said normal service. There may well be a maximum weight for which a 747 or A380 can operate win 3 engines (or rather, 2) but I highly doubt that would ever be done in revenue generating service – Jon Story Jan 06 '16 at 17:38
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@JonStory Oh, yeah, agreed on that. Sorry, I missed the "normal use" part there. I assumed that the answer was referring to flying the aircraft on three engines on a non-rev ferry flight for the purposes of getting the 4th engine replaced. – reirab Jan 06 '16 at 17:41
A GP7000 can't be carried on a cargo 747? I'm surprised because according to this data the GP7200 is smaller in diameter than the Trent, although it weighs more; thus, if the issue is diameter, rather than weight, I'm surprised the GP engine won't fit in a 747. – Bob Jarvis - Слава Україні Jan 06 '16 at 17:49
I seem to recall a documentary where they were transporting a GE 90 (777 engine) and they mentioned it was the largest aircraft engine - it was being loaded onto a 777 freighter. – Burhan Khalid Jan 06 '16 at 21:10
@BurhanKhalid I don't think the 777F can carry the larger variants of the GE90 (the -110 and -115b) fully assembled, but it can carry them with the fan separated from the rest of the engine. Not sure if the 747 freighters can carry one fully assembled or not, but my understanding was that An-124s and such were usually used in those cases (though I could be wrong about this.) – reirab Jan 06 '16 at 21:41

score -1 · Answer 3 · edited Sep 06 '17 at 07:52

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747 aircraft can still have the 5th engine hardpoint installed as an option, even on the 747-8. Many foreign carriers that use the 747 still use this option if they don't have a huge spares network. Imagine the issues trying to get a GEnx engine from main MX base in Australia to London or LAX. It just makes sense to bolt the spare on another passenger flight and fly it there. The A380 doesn't have this ability.

edited Sep 06 '17 at 07:52

Federico

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answered Sep 06 '17 at 07:28

bill bolton

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Welcome to aviation.SE. We are not here to deliberate on what is "better", since that is a matter of personal opinions. – Federico Sep 06 '17 at 07:52

Can the A380 ferry an extra engine, like the 747?

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