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[Remark three months later, Aug 24, 2022: The question seems as pressing as ever. The conflict has indeed turned into a text book war of attrition, with neither side being able to make a decisive move. Instead, both sides try to exhaust each others' resources and to undermine the opponent's military and civil morale, all the while taking unusually heavy military and civil losses. A Ukrainian adviser estimated 150 Ukrainian military fatalities per day, leading to a conservative estimate of 10,000 fatalities since this question was posted.]

[Remark a year later, end of July 2023: The question still seems as pressing as ever. The war has continued to be a war of attrition with the corresponding humanitarian and economical toll. Barring a tremendous surprise (admittedly, there were some in this war already) there is no military victory in sight for either party.]

[Remark one and a half years later, end of January, 2024: The premise of this question — no party will be able to defeat the other one and accomplish their maximum goals — seems correct, which makes the need for exit strategies beyond achieving these goals as pressing as ever.]

For weeks months more than a year two years now the war has appeared to drag on with protracted fighting and a slow-moving front.

Russia's attempt of taking Kyiv and replacing the government has failed, and given the Ukrainian resolve and Western support it seems unlikely that they will be able to do so in the future. Consequently they are concentrating their military efforts in the East and in the South where they try to extend the occupied area.

Conversely, it seems unlikely that Ukraine will be able to restore the borders of 2021 or reconquer Crimea.

The goals of the involved parties are, in a rough outline:

  • Ideally, Ukraine wants to re-assert its authority over all territories occupied by Russia, including Crimea. This goal appears currently unrealistic. Partial recaptures of occupied areas seem more realistic.

  • Ukraine's immediate goal is to prevent Russian advances in the East and South. That goal appears realistic but is not a given.

  • Ideally, Russia would have overthrown the Ukrainian government in the first days of the invasion and asserted factual control over the country, perhaps in the fashion of Belarus. This attempt failed.

  • After this initial failure, the Russian goal appears to establish permanent control over as much Ukrainian territory as possible. For the currently occupied areas in the East and South, this seems realistic, although the precise territory is still to be defined, by whatever means.

  • The Western goal is to prevent the aggressor from succeeding. A secondary goal is to weaken Russia's military. While the latter is realistic, the former is rather not: Even with massive deliveries of heavy weapons it is unlikely that Ukraine's borders of 2021, let alone of 2014 (before the Crimea invasion) will be restored with military means in the near future.

This seems to naturally lead to cease-fire negotiations that would determine a "line of actual control" close to an eventual realistic military outcome but save thousands of lives, let alone property and resources. Of course, the "eventual realistic military outcome" is pretty fuzzy. A cease-fire would define a line of actual control that is neither side's realistic maximum; this potential loss is offset — for both sides — by eliminating the risk of an even worse outcome, and by saving lives and material.

Are there signs that Ukraine and the West would be willing to, however grudgingly, factually (but not politically or legally) accept a Russian occupation and enter cease-fire talks? The benefits of, say, accepting the current line of control would be to eliminate the risk of further Russian incursions. The downside is the loss of the occupied areas and that an illegal invasion is accepted as successful. If Ukraine is not willing to negotiate now: What are their exit strategies, given that re-conquering the occupied areas seems unrealistic?

Note: This war was full of surprises. I'd be happy about answers challenging my assumption that re-establishing territorial control is unlikely.

Addendum: Right at this hour [which was in May 2022 -Peter] a NYT opinion piece has been published lamenting the ill-defined Western war goals and the lack of diplomatic efforts to end the war which makes arguments close to mine.

Peter - Reinstate Monica
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    "Conversely, it seems unlikely that Ukraine will be able to restore the borders of 2021 or reconquer Crimea." - why? With our help they can get everything back. It'll take time, of course, but it is entirely possible. Crimea is extremely vulnerable to Ukraine attack: take down the bridge, cut water supply etc. The Eastern part is obviously harder, but if we think outside of the box, so to speak, e.g. advance through Voronezh and cut the supply routes - this will also be possible. – Aksakal May 17 '22 at 21:51
  • "Are there signs" is IMHO too much on the opinion-soliciting side of things. One can e.g. take these polls among Europeans as "signs", but of course someone else can deny that they have much relevance as a practical way to pressure Kyiv, given that US support is not slacking much. – the gods from engineering Aug 29 '22 at 11:31
  • And as much as some distrust polls from within Ukraine itself, those that have been conducted point to them persisting in their land recovery goals. Thirdly, you're assuming the war isn't stopping because Ukraine isn't negotiating that, but even the first set of polls I've linked to (among Europeans) points to the perception that the fighting isn't' stopping mainly because Russia isn't ceasing its offensive. So that's another bad assumption in your Q. – the gods from engineering Aug 29 '22 at 12:12
  • @Fizz I'm not making that assumption. I'm asking whether there are signs that Ukraine is willing to enter talks without a prior Russian withdrawal; and if not, what their alternate exit strategy is. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Aug 29 '22 at 12:42
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    "The Western goal is to prevent the aggressor from succeeding" <- I disagree here on two points. First, it is at least debatable that there is a unified "western" goal, and we should take at least the US separately (and perhaps consider European states at some finer resolution). Second, if that was the goal, then "the west" would have probably averted this invasion by not trying to draw Ukraine into NATO. My impression is that at least the US' goal seems to involve wanting to "bleed" Russia - diplomatically, economically and militarily. Which is almost orthogonal to the goal you describe. – einpoklum Aug 29 '22 at 21:58
  • @einpoklum I may agree with you suspicion of ulterior motives on the side of the U.S. but the goal of bleeding Russia still implies that they don't succeed, at least for a while. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Aug 30 '22 at 03:31
  • Can you change the title of your Q? People post their personally favorite solution to this war in response, I think, to the rather open title, regardless of how close the two sides are to agreeing to any of that... which is what the body of the Q asks. Edit: I've taken the liberty to do that myself actually. Hopefully this will guide more focused answers in the future. – the gods from engineering Oct 07 '22 at 16:49
  • @Fizz I don't (or didn't) mind a "brainstorming" thread. But I'm also OK with your suggestion and edit, so I let it stand. Although the answer to that narrower question seems more clearly "no, what are you thinking!?", especially now, in October 2022. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Oct 07 '22 at 17:45
  • @Fizz the new title makes many answers off topic. If you need this another question, please ask it from scratch. I have rewritten my answer to match either case but I do not want all contributions to need to do the same. – Stančikas Oct 08 '22 at 14:18
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    @Stančikas: as popular as this brainstorming [former title] question might be, technically such Qs are typically/technically not on-topic even if some don't mind them https://politics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/3705/should-questions-prompting-brainstorming-new-solutions-to-political-problems-be – the gods from engineering Oct 08 '22 at 18:50
  • @Fizz "the best option in a circumstances like this, where a question received substantial edits after receiving solid answers, is to roll back the edits" https://politics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/4127/editing-a-question-to-such-an-extent-as-to-make-all-existing-answers-off-topic so what. – Stančikas Oct 08 '22 at 20:18
  • The atrocities depicted in television footage from Bucha were unbearable to watch. I'm replacing an earlier comment with this one: The only exit acceptable would have to be a terrestrial departure accomplished with a rope. – Edouard Oct 17 '22 at 00:34
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    @einpoklum there is a mistake in your comment since nothing to do with Ukraine and NATO could have prevented the war. (except perhaps NATO nuking Ukraine, so there was nothing for Russia to capture except for a giant crater) – Reasonably Against Genocide Apr 20 '23 at 18:48
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    @user253751: On the contrary, one of the main reasons for the invasion - and certainly a main stated reason - is how Ukraine had in actuality started the process of joining NATO, with the Minsk agreements not respected and NATO members arming it and coordinating the technical aspects of its military integration. Also, an approach of "nothing could have been done" tends not to be conducive of developing exit strategies. – einpoklum Apr 20 '23 at 19:01
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    @einpoklum that's what Russia says... and Hitler said he was protecting the Germans from the evil Jews. Don't take either one at face value. – Reasonably Against Genocide Apr 20 '23 at 19:07
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    @user253751: 1. You don't need Russia saying anything to realize that a neighboring state joining a hostile military alliance and being armed by it, is a potential reason for military conflict. Russia has already invaded a part of Georgia because of a similar, and even less fraught, situation. (And note that does not mean the invasion is justified.) 2. Treating Russia like Nazi Germany and assuming everything it says is a lie to be ignored is unlikely to yield an "exit strategy". – einpoklum Apr 20 '23 at 19:40
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    @einpoklum Continue following the same logic: Ukraine wants to join NATO because Russia keeps threatening to invade it, so the war is still Russia's fault. It is like if Nazi Germany invaded Poland because Poland joined the Defense Against Nazi Invasion Council – Reasonably Against Genocide Apr 21 '23 at 10:14
  • @user253751 I'm not sure how you redeem fault tokens while being a wisp of radioactive smoke – alamar Jan 29 '24 at 23:37

22 Answers22

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This seems to naturally lead to case-fire negotiations that would determine a "line of actual control" close to an eventual realistic military outcome but save thousands of lives, let alone property and resources.

Not really, not at this time, not yet.

Wars don't get started because both countries know the endpoint, they get started because each country thinks it can get what it wants and it takes a loss to convince the loser to concede.

War on Rocks podcast, shortly after the shift of offensive from Kiev area to Donbas put it nicely: at this point, both parties believe they can manipulate the situation to their advantage and it will take military (or economic) losses to convince them otherwise.

Russia's desire to control zones of Donbas beyond where they were on February 23rd goes beyond what Ukraine has said it is willing to negotiate about.

Putin thinks, or at least thought 3 weeks ago (in April 2022), that Russia can take over the Donbas by running a more disciplined military operation in the East. The Russian people have little say. Zelensky believes Ukraine can kick them out, or at least hold the line, and has popular support.

These are not reconcilable positions, at this point. One, or both, will have to make concessions they are not yet willing to make and those concessions won't happen until the current fighting goes one way or the other.

Even then, it is not hard to imagine Russia settling in for a static conflict akin to what they did in Donbas since 2014 - trenches with artillery exchanges. And then that just becomes the new decision point: how much does it cost in lives and economically on either side.

Asking one or the other to "give things up" is rather glib and not all that realistic.

For Ukraine, losing territory is about the worst outcome a nation can get in warfare. Add to it that, for Ukrainians currently in Russian-occupied territories the behavior of Russian troops and authorities seems too abusive to dismiss as a simple exchange of territory. Bucha has made a negotiated settlement much harder for Zelenksy.

For Russia, the situation is no easier: Putin could easily pull out, except that he's staked his entire political house of cards on reinvigorating Russian power and prestige.

Both countries are still in the process of discovering what they, and the other, can or can not, do. For example, Ukraine claimed - either for propaganda or out of genuine belief - that the May 9th parade would see Putin either declare war or mobilization. That did not happen. As per ISW:

Russian President Vladimir Putin used his May 9 speech to praise ongoing Russian efforts in Ukraine and reinforce existing Kremlin framing rather than announcing a change. He did not announce an escalation or declare victory in the Russian war in Ukraine.

Putin likely calculated that he could not ask the Russian population for a greater commitment to the war effort and implicitly reassured the Russian people that he would not ask for a greater societal commitment in his speech.

Putin may be recognizing the growing risks he faces at home and in Ukraine and may be adjusting his objectives, and his desired end state in Ukraine, accordingly.

The Kremlin has already scaled down its objectives in Ukraine (from its initial objective of capturing Kyiv and full regime change) and will likely do so again—or be forced to do so by Ukrainian battlefield successes.

Regardless of any change—or lack thereof—in the Kremlin's objectives, Putin’s speech indicates that the Kremlin has likely decided to maintain its current level of resourcing in the war.

To go back to the question:

For weeks now the war has appeared to drag on with protracted fighting and a slow-moving front.

Yes, that's also part of the "learning process" for both sides.

So, while there are plenty of possible exit strategies for the war, it is unlikely that they will be pursued until considerably more pain is suffered by both sides and one side is convinced they can't achieve their goals.


p.s. It would be remiss not to mention ISW's latest (May 13th) take on Putin's exit strategy, RUSSIAN ANNEXATION OF OCCUPIED UKRAINE IS PUTIN’S UNACCEPTABLE “OFF-RAMP”

It's a doozy:

  • annex already-conquered Ukrainian territories into Russia

  • declare that Ukrainian attacks to recover those areas are violating Russian home territory and liable for nuclear retaliation.

Four months ago, despite a long dislike of Putin, I would have rolled my eyes at this blatantly unjustified trolling of Russia. Now I am hoping that ISW is wrong but by no means putting it beneath them. The interesting spin here is ISW's claim that Russia recognizing it can't win militarily would be precisely what would cause it to do this, to lock in their territorial robbery.

Italian Philosophers 4 Monica
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  • WRT "The Russian people have little say" - Russian people don't have any obvious exit strategy too, Putin or not Putin. – alamar May 12 '22 at 08:54
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    @alamar WDYM? They could simply, idk, not invade Ukraine. Except (very roughly speaking) they'll be shot by their commanders, because those commanders would be shot by their commanders if they don't shoot those below them who refuse to invade Ukraine, and so on, all the way up to the top. – Reasonably Against Genocide May 12 '22 at 12:31
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    @user253751 Using the wayback machine to go into the past and change the course of events is not an exit strategy. Right now, "not invading Ukraine" is not an exit strategy either. – alamar May 12 '22 at 14:57
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    @alamar Sure it is. Invading is an ongoing action, and they could stop doing it. – Reasonably Against Genocide May 12 '22 at 14:58
  • That would just lead to Ukrainian advance into what Russians consider "their recognized client states", and later, "their territory" - not leading to an end of war therefore not an exit strategy. – alamar May 12 '22 at 15:01
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    @alamar "their territory" BS! Doubt anyone would be too supportive of Ukraine reclaiming Crimea for example and contradicted by Zelensky's statement about Feb 23rd zones of control – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica May 12 '22 at 16:04
  • Why won't they? But more importantly, it does not bring any benefits. It's hard to justify losing the face for nothing. – alamar May 12 '22 at 16:19
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    @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica: It's worth remembering that in World War II, the Allied forces helped France not only push Germany back to their borders, but that Germany had been occupied by the U.S., the U.S.S.R, Britain, and France by the time Germany had agreed to an unconditional surrender. Not all of that territory stayed theirs, nor was all of it theirs before the war. – Alexander The 1st May 12 '22 at 19:30
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    @AlexanderThe1st I think you'll find that 1945's Germany was not a nuclear state ;-) – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica May 12 '22 at 19:53
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    @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica: I'll grant that they weren't nuclear launch capable at the time, but they were apparently trying to be a nuclear state. Though you could also argue that it was partially why the defensive invasion went beyond just previously established borders, to prevent a situation like Russia now. – Alexander The 1st May 12 '22 at 20:15
  • @alamar, got it, and I take my comments back. Thanks! – Richard Hardy May 13 '22 at 14:02
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    @alamar the problem with "concessions to avoid being invaded" is that the occupier says thank you, moves their troops up to the new line, and threatens you again. Then what? Concede again? – pjc50 May 13 '22 at 14:04
  • "...to lock in their territorial robbery" As it happens I have exactly the question for it. Would mutually assured destruction help or hinder occupation of minor, non-nuclear countries? and you answered it positively at the time. Yes, a reckless nation with nuclear weapons can go far. The rest of the world better thinks carefully about that. – NoDataDumpNoContribution May 14 '22 at 08:38
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    Oh, I agree, except that your question, and my answer, was posited on "minor, non-nuclear" opponent. So far Ukraine seems conventionally too big for Russia to swallow: my answer only addressed constraints on another big country directly helping out militarily - which should still not happen here. However Ukraine may call Russia's bluff and the West may call Russia's bluff on getting attacked by Russia if not directly involved. With nuclear taboo Russia's gambit may not work to stop Ukraine from to trying to retake its own territory. West should unify and clarify in advance it will help UK – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica May 14 '22 at 16:09
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    @pjc50 if the invader may threaten again (in the foreseeable future), it means that the endpoint is not known. – alamar May 15 '22 at 12:24
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    The ISW predictions turned out surprisingly accurate, 4 months later. – Emil Jeřábek Oct 04 '22 at 11:14
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    It looks like the May prediction of ISW has largely become reality. Russia can't win the war, tries to lock in territorial gains and threatens nuclear war but so far the war simply goes on, so maybe Ukrainians kind of calling the bluff. Who knows. The war will either go on or end even more badly. – NoDataDumpNoContribution Oct 08 '22 at 11:01
  • @pjc50 regarding concessions. Russia has been conceding NATO expansion since 2007. When this is an evident and openly stated security concern, which Russia publicly addressed to NATO and US, who answered, "we will expand into Ukraine if we feel like it"... you can't really blame Russia for saying enough is enough. Ukraine - well, I'm certain they were assured that Russia would not invade. The thing is - Russia wasn't bluffing. Now there's a shtshow, because someone thought Russia would continue to conceed. – MishaP Mar 10 '23 at 22:20
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    NATO had not expanded into Ukraine, and indeed there is no good theory of international law under which any country has the right to invade others to stop them in participating in any international treaty. – pjc50 Mar 14 '23 at 10:28
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    As long as Russsia is willing to fight to impose their will on other countries, and those countries are willing to fight to not be part of Russia, there will be fighting. The exit strategies necessarily require changing one of those. How much one party feels like they've conceded factors into it, but is only one factor. – bharring Mar 14 '23 at 16:04
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    Rather than saying "3 weeks ago" a date would be better. – tgdavies Mar 25 '23 at 08:32
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Are there signs that Ukraine and the West would be willing to, however grudgingly, factually (but not politically or legally) accept a Russian occupation and enter cease-fire talks?

Zelensky has stated that the bare minimum he will accept is a withdrawal of Russian troops to pre-invasion positions. Which is almost surely unacceptable to Russia. So the war is likely to go on until one side wins or is too exhausted to continue.

Get ready for a long war - Russia is allegedly already doing that.

PS: The fact that Zelensky is willing to make the demand above must indicate he thinks there's a realistic chance it can be achieved. In other words, Zelensky believes that Ukraine can realistically win the war. If he's right and Ukraine wins, then that's the exit strategy. If he's wrong, then presumably he will think about an exit strategy once he changes his mind.

PPS: You might be interested: US, Western Europe fret over uncertain Ukraine war endgame which basically reaches the same conclusion as the answer above.

Allure
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    "The fact that Zelensky is willing to make the demand above must indicate he thinks there's a realistic chance it can be achieved" does not seem correct to me at all. It's common practice in negotiations (from haggling in a market, to business deals, to brexit, etc) to start out labelling things as red lines that you plan to concede later on – Tristan May 11 '22 at 16:13
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    The bare minimum "pre-invasion" meaning before the 20 February 2014 invasion, the 22 August 2014 invasion, the 24 February 2022 invasion, or another one? – gerrit May 12 '22 at 08:22
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    @gerrit from Italian Philosophers 4 Monica's source, it's the one before the 24 February 2022 invasion. – Allure May 12 '22 at 08:34
  • @Tristan Russia has peacefully conceeded every red line of NATO expansion since 2007. There's basically nothing left to conceed. So now we find ourselves in a situation, where NATO apparently think they can get this one last redline, but Russia sees this as a red line which will mean the end of Russia. Until NATO think of some plausibly intelligent way to say, "darn, Ukraine tricked us, you can have them", this war will drag on. All we can do is wait for a reasonable bus that NATO will throw Ukraine under. – MishaP Mar 10 '23 at 22:26
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    @MishaP NATO is a defensive alliance established by international treaty. Independent countries should be able to get into international treaties without the approval of their neighboring countries. Therefore, any county should be able to get into NATO assuming the member countries accept it. There is no indication that NATO will suddenly turn offensive and invade a nuclear power, triggering a nuclear war, so Russian concerns are less about their national defense than about their regional sphere of influence. – Earth Apr 11 '23 at 20:41
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    And really, if Russia is so concerned that its neighbors would want to join a defensive alliance, maybe it should stop invading neighbors. – Earth Apr 11 '23 at 20:44
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    @Earth the argument that NATO is a defensive alliance is a contentious one, because although the treaty sure says it's a defensive alliance, the actions do not. https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/68436/has-nato-ever-started-a-war – Allure Apr 12 '23 at 00:47
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    @Earth Although indepdendent countries should be able to get into international treaties without the approval of neighbouring countries, the international treaties do not have to let the country join (NATO refused to let Russia join, FWIW). Finally, if you think Russia should stop invading its neighbours: did NATO expand first or did Russia invade its neighbours first? – Allure Apr 12 '23 at 00:49
  • @Allure You might disagree, but to me most of those look like humanitarian interventions. The one exception being the war in Afghanistan, which I do think went beyond NATO's intent. Still, it's hard to look at that and conclude that NATO would attack a nuclear power unprovoked. – Earth Apr 12 '23 at 16:07
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    @Allure NATO "expansion" (i.e. independent countries applying and being accepted into an alliance) is in no way justification for war in any situation, but especially against other countries not in that alliance. Did Georgia deserve to be invaded because Estonia joined NATO? If Central American countries formed an alliance, would that justify the US to invade Mexico? I'm struggling to understand the moral framework you're using here. – Earth Apr 12 '23 at 16:21
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    @Earth humanitarian interventions are still not defensive in nature. As for the Georgian war, even the EU found Georgia attacked first: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-georgia-russia-report/georgia-started-war-with-russia-eu-backed-report-idUSTRE58T4MO20090930 – Allure Apr 12 '23 at 23:20
  • @Earth "would that justify the US to invade Mexico" Apparently so, in the eyes of certain US allies. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/russia-ukraine-war-australian-defence-minister-peter-dutton-says-australia-should-be-prepared-for-war/ST627N4M7YUDCP6AOLL7YH6WVM/ – Allure Apr 12 '23 at 23:25
  • @Allure Russia attacked first. Russia has been attacking since before NATO was created. Unless you count the creation of Russia and Russia's rights and interests begin at the point of the dissolution of the USSR. However, to do that would discredit everything Putin and much of Russia's argument against NATO anyway. Further, the phrase NATO expansion implies NATO took action to change something, however, NATO has no direct influences on its member states or applicants. – David S Apr 25 '23 at 22:02
  • @DavidS However, to do that would discredit everything Putin and much of Russia's argument against NATO anyway. How so, given that NATO expanded after the USSR dissolved? As for "NATO has no direct influences on its member states or applicants", I don't see how that works either, given that NATO is made up of its member states. – Allure Apr 25 '23 at 23:23
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    @Allure "To most, these seem like humanitarian interventions". A VERY biased and subjective statement. The same one in fact, that Russia used for Ukraine. At this point, we must either 1) Abstain from such subjective reasons and addmit that regardless of reasons, an invasion is an invasion. 2) Admit that this is a valid reason and come to terms that Russia is not jnvading, but carrying out a humanitarian mission because Russia said so. 3) create and unbiased (lol) court that will draw the line between invasion and humanitarian intervention. – MishaP Jun 07 '23 at 21:02
  • @Allure you forgot to mention the Iraq war which US has admitted to starting based on falsified evidence. – MishaP Jun 07 '23 at 21:03
  • @DavidS actually this is highly subjective. Depends on what you call "attacked first". Ukraine shelled Russian territory and Ukrainian forces made incursions into Russian territory long before 02.2022. Also, considering US never denied leaked information of CIA supplying opposition in Syria and other governments, one can legitimately suspect US of a covert coup in Ukraine, which resulted in a strongly pro-NATO puppet state. Something you can't blame Russia for seeing as a hostile action. – MishaP Jun 07 '23 at 21:10
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    "Ukraine shelled Russian territory and Ukrainian forces made incursions into Russian territory" Only if you consider Ukraine "Russian Territory" or believe Russian soldiers are Ukrainians. – bharring Jul 20 '23 at 16:40
25

Frame challenge: You assume the participants in this war are looking towards an outcome. You don't see the war itself as a possible goal.

  • Western interests: The longer the war progresses, the more Russia is weakened both economically and militarily. Right now, from the perspective of a geo-strategical planner, the war going on for as long as possible is the best outcome. You are basically fighting Russia without sacrificing your own soldiers, so there's almost no backlash at home. Some politicians are even on record stating that they hope to make Ukraine into Russia's "second Afghanistan".
  • Russian interests: Not sure about this, but war is a common instrument to control internal politics. Several US presidents allegedly started wars to secure their second term. Why would Putin be so much different? His popularity had been slowly falling for years, now it is up again. He could crack down on internal opposition, some of which had become a nuissance. I don't think he planned for a long war, but I'm fairly confident he'd rather have years of war then going home defeated.
  • Ukrainian interests: In general, Ukraine is the only party that suffers severely from a long war. However, it would be silly to assume that there aren't at least elements within Ukraine that are happy about the opportunity to fight a hated enemy and make them bleed as much as possible. Some of Selensky's actions make no sense at all unless you take into account the possibility that he is being advised to do as much damage to Russia as possible, no matter the cost.

That is certainly not a perfect picture. But again: I challenge your assumption that everyone wants peace. In every war, there are people who are perfectly happy just having the war, without even looking for a specific outcome.


Addendum:

There are also people on all sides who directly profit from the war and its continuation. The military industry is the obvious one, but there are also players who can consolidate their business, eliminate opposition, etc.


Addendum 2:

As reported by media now, peace talks were actually close to a compromise solution at the end of March, and were then shut down. At least one influential party has taken active steps towards prolonging the war.

Tom
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    Interesting take. This is indeed what the situation looks like, at least regarding Western interests: A proxy war. I hope it's not true. As an aside, there is a group of players in every country that profits greatly from any war: It is what peace studies in the 70s and 80s called the "military–industrial complex" who are having the best time in decades right now and zero interest in this war ending any time soon. – Peter - Reinstate Monica May 12 '22 at 07:17
  • @Peter-ReinstateMonica excellent point. I'll edit the answer to include it. – Tom May 12 '22 at 07:39
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    There is no such thing as a "western interests". Both EU and US (who are the best approximation to the "collective West" in the Russian parlance) spent a lot of time and energy in debates about their response to the Russian actions. But if we can average the response over EU and US, a quick defeat of Russia is best for their economies, as well as their security. – fraxinus May 12 '22 at 08:31
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    The only beneficiaries of the war is the weapons industry. Although the economic impacts western Europe is of course tiny compared to the impact on Ukraine, it would be much better for western Europe to have peace (just ask people regularly driving an internal combustion engine vehicle or using fossil fuels to heat their homes). – gerrit May 12 '22 at 08:45
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    Some of Selensky's actions make no sense at all unless you take into account the possibility that he is being advised to do as much damage to Russia as possible, no matter the cost — do you have an example? – gerrit May 12 '22 at 08:47
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    Actually, the military-industrial complex is more than just the industry: As the name says, it includes the military proper who is one of the winners of a conflict, allocating more power and resources. (Not the grunts, mind you, who die and get crippled -- the people who are in command.) There are more players attaching to this "complex", e.g. political hawks seeking to expand a nation's power, political representatives of places that have military industry etc. – Peter - Reinstate Monica May 12 '22 at 09:39
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    @fraxinus Tom was looking at "Western interests" explicitly from the viewpoint of a "geo-strategical planner". From this perspective there are three global blocks: The capitalist, individualist West, the struggling, delusional, corrupt Russia, and the authoritarian, unfree China. Weakening Russia and expanding the West's sphere of influence is a plausible interest of such planners who favor domination above cooperation, and that's true for the entire Western "block", even if it's not monolithic. One keyword is "strategic" (long term advantage) as opposed to "tactical" (prices next winter). – Peter - Reinstate Monica May 12 '22 at 09:59
  • @gerrit See my comment to fraxinus. Gasoline prices next winter are a minor issue in geo-strategic thinking. – Peter - Reinstate Monica May 12 '22 at 10:02
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    it is correct that the US and EU have different interests in some ways. The US specifically has long wanted to drive a wedge between EU and Russia, especially Germany and Russia. But that discussion goes too much into details for this answer to this question. – Tom May 12 '22 at 15:13
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    "Some politicians are on record" - who? – pjc50 May 12 '22 at 16:04
  • @pjc50 I may misremember this. While it is mentioned in tons of online articles (do a quick search), the only direct quotes I can find quickly are from political analysts, not active politicians. I may also be mixing it with similar statements, such as the German minister for interior hoping that the sanctions will destroy (her word) the Russian economy. – Tom May 12 '22 at 16:19
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    "the German minister for interior hoping that the sanctions will destroy (her word) the Russian economy" — I don't recall her ever saying anything along these lines, and even after a considerable amount of searching I couldn't find any article even remotely along these lines. So, what's the source for your claim, or is this another instance of misremembering? – Schmuddi May 13 '22 at 10:22
  • @Schmuddi the german word she used was "ruinieren", if you google with that you will immediately find plenty of sources. – Tom May 13 '22 at 11:22
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    Right, then a more appropriate representation of her words would of course be "ruin" instead of "destroy". And even with "ruinieren" as a search term do I fail to find anything that resembles what you're claiming (your Google bubble must be very different from mine). So, how about posting one of these plenty of sources to help me out? – Schmuddi May 13 '22 at 12:22
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    Or are you confusing the Minister of the Interior (Faeser) with the Foreign minister (Baerbock)? Because the latter did say that Putin's war against Ukraine will ruin Russia, not least due to the sanctions. – Schmuddi May 13 '22 at 12:26
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  • Putin did not need a war for internal politics. On the contrary, @nternal politicians have been asking and demanding Russian military intervention in Ukraine since 2014, but Russias population reacted cautiously and divided to the start of the war. Wars for internal politics are meant to unite, not divide. 3) Ukraine really isn't acting as a sovereign nation and isn't making decisions that would benefit Ukraine. So Ukraine isn't in this war by their own choice.
  • – MishaP May 13 '22 at 12:51
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    @Schmuddi yes, that was a mistake. I meant the foreign minister. No idea why I wrote interior. – Tom May 13 '22 at 14:48
  • Looking at this answer apparently Germany is not a western country as prior to the war I can't recall anybody talking about weakening Russia economically and militarily so it seems very fishy to consider that a long-term held strategic goal. However, I could be wrong. – Jan May 18 '22 at 14:48
  • @gerrit shutting down the peace talks at the end of March when a meeting for Ukraine and Russia ministers of exterior with a signing of a cease fire was already scheduled for March 29 in Istanbul, for example. – Tom Oct 12 '22 at 10:54
  • @pjc50 just to complete my previous incomplete answer: We now have former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett on record on the peace talks question. – Tom Mar 03 '23 at 07:55
  • @fraxinus They being not united could only give both side hope of things would happen in a way good for their side. So there is the western interest as a factor, and the not united interest, while weaker, would only push the war longer, not shorter. – user23013 Jul 31 '23 at 16:01