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Jury nullification may not be the worlds best know term, but it's certainly no stranger to this Stack.

I'm curious how it comes about, and how it is legally justified, that an officer of the court is forbidden from telling a jury of a right that it has.

I can imagine "populist" and "conservative" (small c) answers that it would create chaos, or throw the law into disrepute, or allow guilty parties to be free. I can well believe those are practical arguments to contemplate, but I'm still not convinced.

When I think it through, these are some of my main concerns:

  1. The status quo is that a jury has absolute discretion to follow the law or substitute its own finding in lieu, without need to justify. But the court and its officers may not tell them they have that right. That's going to mean that some trials will have a jury informed of its discretion before retiring, and some won't. How is this justified as fair justice?
  2. We trust 12 individuals to decide whether they believe a matter is proven beyond reasonable doubt. Surely if so, we may also trust them to not misuse discretion either? (At most, add a suitable direction)
  3. Individuals informed of their right to ask a jury to nullify, must artificially fire their representative, then self-represent, to do so. It's artificial in that they don't wish to, but it's then only way to directly seek it of a jury or inform them or address the possibility. This is disruptive and contrary to the interests of justice. Also probably ineffectual as it doesn't stop anyone, just raises a mental barrier.
  4. Surely having a right as a defendant that may accrue to one's benefit, but be forbidden by national law or formal court processes as written, to have competent counsel mention or request it, with the express purpose that the jury shall be ignorant of their full rights in the matter of a verdict (and left with the incorrect belief that they have no discretion available), is in breach of human right to a fair trial?

So... we trust a jury to rightly judge guilt - including capital guilt. But not to be even aware of discretion. And I'm left with the question at the start, as a result.

Stilez
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    I'm not sure about the premise that a jury has the "right" to nullify. AFAIK, legally they do not; they are responsible for making a decision in accordance with the law and on no other basis. They do have the ability to nullify, since nothing actually prevents them from doing it, nor is there any punishment if they do. But that's not the same as a right. It's like the distinction between legalization and decriminalization. – Nate Eldredge Jan 11 '22 at 02:37
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    As you know, of course, this site is not for debates on how the law ought to work or what principles it should or shouldn't uphold; our own opinions on such things are off topic. It's rather for objectively answerable questions about what the law is. As such, you may want to re-focus your question away from subjective things like "is this fair?" to something like "have courts found this to be legal, and what reasoning did they give?" – Nate Eldredge Jan 11 '22 at 02:40
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    As ohwilleke says, it's a compromise that the legal system has created. You are totally free to think such a compromise is stupid / absurd / inconsistent / unfair / immoral / etc, but this site isn't the place to air it. – Nate Eldredge Jan 11 '22 at 02:42
  • @NateEldredge - I was going to use the term "equitable". A primary legal principle is that defendants are equal in the eyes of the law, and (I think also!) have equal access to the benefits of rule of law. I used the term "is this fair" because I wasn't sure that equitable, with its specific legal meaning, would convey the issue, "this appears to breach the principle that all defendants are equal with equal rights under the law". What would the correct term be? – Stilez Jan 11 '22 at 12:01
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    "a jury has absolute discretion to follow the law or substitute its own finding in lieu, without need to justify" Actually that's not correct; look up "JNOV". Judges seldom do it because it's seldom necessary, but it is a thing. – TylerH Jan 11 '22 at 14:45
  • @TylerH - Interesting, thanks! However this is specific UK law, and as far as I can tell there is no such parallel in England and Wales. – Stilez Jan 11 '22 at 15:31
  • @Stilez Ah, thanks; I zoomed past the tags and only noticed the "united" bit, and assumed United States (where there are similar guidelines: "you should follow these guidelines, but may rule exactly as you see fit"). – TylerH Jan 11 '22 at 16:03
  • Is it unlawful for an officer of the court to tell them that? – JeffUK Jan 11 '22 at 17:55
  • Well, federal prosecutors have charged people for jury tampering, just for informing the public outside a courthouse, that a jury has that choice. Julian Heicklen, some years ago, from memory, was one such case. But that's a whole different issue. In essence yes. It would probably I guess be contempt of court and breach of court rules, and in some cases defendants have fired counsel because that way as self representing persons, they aren't officers of the court or so tightly bound. – Stilez Jan 11 '22 at 18:17
  • I just know if they pick you for a case, they give you some essay questions. If you write your answers as a love letter to jury nullification, the next thing you'll hear is that your jury service is concluded and no need to call in tomorrow. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jan 12 '22 at 02:43
  • IANAL, but it strikes me that this is a question of "freedom" vs. "right". You have the freedom to find as you please, as a juror, but the court is under no obligation to enable you in exercising that freedom. (And officers of the court serve that court and its interests, primarily, so it can oblige them not to sow the seeds of disruption among jurors.) ...I mean, no officer of the court will inform a defendant of their "right" to represent themselves, right? I would think the reasons are similar. "You can do this... but we're sure as hell not gonna encourage you." – FeRD Jan 12 '22 at 06:58
  • @FeRD-, you might be right to ask freedom vs right, but some of the rest isn't correct. Officers of the court can and do tell defendants they have a right to represent themselves, although often unwise to. Counsels don't get hauled up by the judge if they try and tell a jury the defendant has that right (they wouldn't usually want to, but they could freely if needed). And end of the day, whether its right or freedom, my question centres on the impact on trial equality, that some can and do, others are in practice barred from the same thing by policy. – Stilez Jan 12 '22 at 07:21

3 Answers3

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The "why" is pretty simple: the duty of the court is the ensure compliance with the law and uphold the rule of law. A statement to the contrary would undermine that obligation and would undermine a juror's oath to rule consistent with the law.

But, out of institutional considerations, any rule that would make jury nullification impossible would also undermine other aspects of the jury trial that are designed to make a jury's determination of the facts of a case in a manner consistent with the law independently. And the oath of jury members to uphold the law is seen as adequate to secure the goal that juries uphold the law.

One of the main points of a jury as an institution is to make random members of the general public who will never assemble together again and whose reasons aren't disclosed, rather than an identifiable individual who will continue to serve for decades and is identified with the government responsible for unpopular resolutions of particular criminal cases. If a judge could inquire about the reasons for a jury decision and punish them for making a decision for the wrong reasons, this appearance of independence and transfer of responsibility would be defeated.

Another purpose of a jury trial system is to democratize the courts and to make a collective decision of the people at large look like one. But, even rare instances of jurors being disciplined for rendering a verdict in a manner that a judge grilled the jurors upon and found wanting would be problematic with respect to the cause of getting jurors (who already readily evade service) to serve.

Therefore, continuing to keep in place the practices with respect to appellate review and the privacy of jury deliberations that makes jury nullification possible in fact, while not acknowledging this "loophole" in the system, is viewed as a suitable compromise.

This isn't a breach of a human right to a fair trial because jury nullification is an extra-legal benefit to a criminal defendant to which they have not entitlement for the trial to be fair, and because governments don't have human rights. A jury nullification is in the same moral and human rights territory as an executive branch pardon. It can provide a safety valve that, because of the persons who are exercising it, we believe to be fairly safe from undue abuse, even though it does not implicate legal rights strictly construed.

ohwilleke
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    That sounds like an implicit statement that nullification is somehow unlawful? It would be easy to remove the jury's right by statute, if so, or if wanted. But until that happens, it must surely be part of the law, and part of its compliance, for a jury to have a mind to all possibilities that a jury may rightfully have? – Stilez Jan 10 '22 at 18:42
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    @Stilez Jury nullification is contrary to the juror's oath when empaneled. But the courts have made a policy choice for the reasons suggested to make that oath unenforceable as a matter of law, so it is merely a moral obligation. – ohwilleke Jan 10 '22 at 18:46
  • I also don't get your second paragraph. Can you clarify what other aspects would be affected, by requiring a jury to judge by the law and make no exceptions for any belief whether the law was appropriate or fair, for example? (I'm thinking that you couldn't enforce it without breaking jury privacy, but also it need not be permitted. Other misconduct by a jury can be contempt and so could refusal to follow a direction or returning an "unreasonable" verdict?). And again, how can a promise be kept, to uphold the law, if not allowed to know the full law? – Stilez Jan 10 '22 at 18:47
  • And none of these really explain how it can be just to all defendants (my concern 1), compatible with human rights (my concern 4) and so on. Is it possible to expand a bit? – Stilez Jan 10 '22 at 18:50
  • That's helpful. I understand what you mean by being in the same domain as executive pardon. But they aren't comparable in a rights setting. (1) A pardon is acknowledged to all, so all can petition for it, equally. A pardon that could only be petitioned at one point in time, that some knew could be sought, others are forbidden to be told it could be sought then, and couldn't claim later, is a better parallel. (2) labeling it "extra legal" doesn't make it so. Its in the legal system, and moreso, an integral feature of the legal system that affects case outcomes, so surely its a legal benefit. – Stilez Jan 10 '22 at 20:01
  • @Stilez Perhaps a better example would be not getting prosecuted because the prosecutor's office's computer system crashed and it couldn't reconstruct its evidence. – ohwilleke Jan 10 '22 at 20:03
  • Again, there's a difference between a fortuitous event that randomly helps a random defendant, and a fortuitous event that some defendants can have recourse to (knowledgeable jury or knowledgeable defendant) and others effectively are prevented having recourse to by policy (unaware defendant, and jury deliberately kept unaware). I take your points, but the question I have as to fairness and rights, is unanswered. Regardless of issues you mention, the end result is some D's will have access to/benefit of trial procedure knowhow actively kept from awareness of other D's and their juries.... – Stilez Jan 11 '22 at 02:35
  • (Or consider a concrete case: Two defendants, identical claimed offences, the first jury was aware of the possibility via chance juror knowledge, the other has a jury who could choose to nullify but was not be made aware because its forbidden for an officer to tell them. Both D's have the same right to have it considered, but however remote the chance, one defendant will never have that option able to be considered as part of deliberation. How can that not be unfair?) – Stilez Jan 11 '22 at 02:36
  • @ohwilleke: There's a thing about oaths. They are interpreted by the person swearing them not by the person demanding them. If you hold them to be something other than meaningless, you may find the oath you demand backfires upon you. – Joshua Jan 11 '22 at 03:55
  • @Stilez some defendants have $10,000/hr legal teams who were classmates at Harvard with the Judge, and others have overworked public defenders. Is that fair? A defendant's rights are more to a "minimum quality" of trial than they are to an "equal trial" with every other potential defendant. A defendant doesn't have a right to jury nullification any more than they have the right to the best legal team in the world, so its not considered an issue that some have it and some don't. – mbrig Jan 11 '22 at 17:47
  • @mbrig. That's a a red herring, though I don't doubt the good faith behind it. There's a huge difference. If one defendant can benefit from a rule - and this is a de facto rule, no sanction, no inquiry, no reversal here if it happens, however "perverse" - and another could not, because they were from the start barred from their jury being allowed to know the rule even existed however slim their chances, that is not the same at all. They don't have a right to it. But how can UK human rights be said upheld, if policy's practical effect is, some can and some can't even access that outcome – Stilez Jan 11 '22 at 17:58
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    @Stilez I think the "de facto" makes all the difference though. The legal system doesn't consider it a rule, and on that basis ignores the effects. Trials have all manner of "unfairness"/inequality due to all manner of practical effects, but you can only get a new trial when your actual, de jure, legal rights were violated. – mbrig Jan 11 '22 at 18:25
  • @mbrig - that's a fascinating point to contemplate, thank you! Its worth a question on its own. – Stilez Jan 11 '22 at 18:50
  • "the duty of the court is the [sic] ensure compliance with the law and uphold the rule of law" - Not quite. The duty of the court is to serve justice, which is why it usually upholds the rule of law - and why both juries and judges have the legal right to return a verdict contrary to the law, in case the law would be unjust to apply in a particular situation (juries have the power of nullification; judges have the power to issue a judgment notwithstanding the verdict and override a jury's voting to convict). – Vikki Jan 11 '22 at 20:09
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    @Vikki Not really. Courts ensure compliance with the law and uphold the rule of law even if the law is unjust. Determining if the law is just is not the job of the courts in most cases. The power to issue a JNOV in a civil case is one of the reasons that jury nullification is largely limited to criminal cases (although the U.K. has almost no civil juries). – ohwilleke Jan 11 '22 at 20:21
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    @Vikki Incidentally, there are government officials in the system who do have a legal obligation to serve justice (although not, on those terms, a legally enforceable duty), who just happen to not be judges. Those officials are prosecuting attorneys. – ohwilleke Jan 12 '22 at 17:43
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I don't disagree with the other answer but I think it would be helpful to add some points about UK law specifically, since that is tagged in the question.

For England and Wales, the role of the jury is subject to the Criminal Procedure Rules, which provide that anyone involved in a criminal case must (among other duties) deal justly and fairly, acquitting the innocent and convicting the guilty. They swear or affirm that they will give "a true verdict according to the evidence", which is to say that the verdict should not be based on such factors as the punishment the defendant might receive, or information not presented and argued in court. The position in Scotland and Northern Ireland is essentially the same.

The jury members do not have the right to step outside their assigned role as finders of fact, within the set process. The accused also does not have the right to tell them to do that. Rather, it is the accused who has the right to a fair trial, and the jury who have the shared duty to give them that trial. The accused does have the specific right for the jury to be impartial, and many other rights. The jurors are protected from reprisal for returning a not-guilty verdict (see Bushel's Case), but still have to follow the court's rules, just like everyone else in court.

It's true that the privacy of jury deliberations mean that they might not do their sworn duty, but as a matter of law they are meant to decide based on the evidence presented, and on the law as explained to them. Aside from contempt of court, there are now several specific offences for jurors who fail to do this - mainly directed at those who do their own research - but also including engaging in "prohibited conduct", which is

conduct from which it may reasonably be concluded that the person intends to try the issue otherwise than on the basis of the evidence presented in the proceedings on the issue.

This provision, introduced in 2015, is in response to a case of a juror who posted on Facebook:

Woooow I wasn't expecting to be in a jury Deciding a paedophile's fate, I've always wanted to Fuck up a paedophile & now I'm within the law!

Contempt proceedings followed (Attorney General v Davey [2013] EWHC 2317 (Admin)) and the 2015 legislation was introduced to make that kind of situation easier to administer. In Parliamentary committee discussions it was suggested that this offence might also cover the giving of a perverse verdict, and although that intention was denied, the case still illustrates that juries can deviate in both ways from their duty. There are plenty of other cases about racially biased jurors, jurors who knew the accused or a victim, and so on, all of which are potentially compromising to the proper basis on which they should decide.

Barristers may be found in contempt if they suggest the jury should disregard the instructions of the court. The judge has the last word on jury instructions, literally, and is in a position to give them the proper basis on which they should decide, or in more extreme examples to discharge the jury and start again. So it is a bit tricky for a barrister, or a litigant in person, to sneak through the suggestion.

In response to your enumerated concerns -

  1. There are many appellate cases concerning judges' instructions to jurors, and the expectations in the summing-up are well established. This will include language explaining how the jurors are meant to proceed.
  2. It is not a question of absolute trust but a system of overlapping safeguards. These include early removal of potential jurors from the pool if they cannot promise to participate properly, the various briefings given to them, the possibility of being held in contempt of court, the possibility of inquiring into jury deliberations if there is misconduct, the jury policing themselves within the room, the eventual option of returning a majority verdict (e.g. 11/12) if there is a stubborn minority, and the fundamental asymmetry between prosecution and defence.
  3. It is not the case that litigants in person are able to suggest that the jury should not follow the law. There are lowered expectations from the court about how they might behave compared to professional lawyers, and they don't face the possibility of professional sanctions, but the judge is still entitled and expected to stop them from messing up the proceedings. More commonly, LiPs face other obstacles in properly presenting their case, and the current policy is that judges are meant to nudge them back into bounds without impairing their right to take part. So judges may have a different manner with LiPs but they are not exempt from the rules.
  4. There are some ECtHR cases about jury trials (and recall that not all European jurisdictions even have juries). The Convention language requires a fair hearing by an "independent and impartial tribunal", and there is a right for the accused to participate effectively. But in Miljevic v Croatia [2020] and Brandstetter v Austria [1991], it was held that this does not entail "an unlimited right to use any defence arguments", and in Melin v France [1993] that he has to show diligence himself if he refuses legal assistance. In Legillon v France [2013], it is restated that in a system where a lay jury returns a verdict without having to give reasons,

Article 6 requires an assessment of whether sufficient safeguards were in place to avoid any risk of arbitrariness and to enable the accused to understand the reasons for his conviction. Such procedural safeguards may include, for example, directions or guidance provided by the presiding judge to the jurors on the legal issues arising or the evidence adduced, and precise, unequivocal questions put to the jury by the judge, forming a framework on which the verdict is based or sufficiently offsetting the fact that no reasons are given for the jury's answers.

This would suggest that the regime in England and Wales is compatible with the Convention rights, given that its overriding objective (from the Criminal Procedure Rules) is to guarantee a fair trial. While "the rule governing the secrecy of jury deliberations is a crucial and legitimate feature of English trial law which serves to reinforce the jury's role as the ultimate arbiter of fact and to guarantee open and frank deliberations among jurors on the evidence which they have heard", Gregory v United Kingdom [1997] ECHR 9, the potential for arbitrariness arises and that is offset by the surrounding procedural safeguards. Again, some of those exist for the protection of the accused against prejudiced jurors, or jurors who do outside research and so might find negative information that the accused had no chance to see and counter in court. The suggestion in the question about the jury being "ignorant of their full rights" does not apply, since the jury members do not have Convention rights (such as free expression) which would operate in this context, where they are required to be impartial in the interests of justice.

Arthur B
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    This is much more helpful,- the detail and depth I mean. Thanks. And yet, the point could do with a bit more direct addressing. Ignoring those who seek information outside the courtroom, and so on, and sticking to nullification...... The answer as it stands seems to say, a jury must not find in defiance of the evidence (= perverse/nullified) but equally should they decide to anyway, they are in fact allowed. To underline this, even if the judge says they * must * find guilty and they don't, they are still allowed. There is no sanction, no inquiry, no reversal and retrial..... – Stilez Jan 11 '22 at 13:32
  • That stops being an aberration, and becomes a part of court procedure and practice, at that point, de facto if not de jure. (Even if for many, undesired but hard to eliminate: there's still no sanction/reversal, it's permitted de facto.) Realistically, some D's benefit (however slim) from a jury knowing that fact, that they do have discretion without sanction to vote contrarian for any or no reason without inquiry, in practice, and some are prevented by policy from their jury knowing it, and so never have that equal option in reality, however slim/unlikely. That's my fundamental query. – Stilez Jan 11 '22 at 13:54
  • Would it be considered proper or improper for jurors to place their own judgment as to whether things are e.g. "unreasonable" ahead of any judicial instruction on the matter? If a situation arises which is somewhat different from any that were contemplated by Parliament or have previously arisen in case law, I wouldn't think anyone but the jury would be adequately placed to judge whether the differences are sufficient to render existing statutory and case law insufficient to reach a verdict without applying additional judgment of their own. – supercat Jan 11 '22 at 19:53
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    Being "impartial in the interests of justice" would seem to require that the jury have the right of nullification, to guard against situations where strictly following the law would result in injustice. – Vikki Jan 11 '22 at 20:16
  • Interestingly, in the US, proceedings against someone for telling the jury they have the right to nullify the law tend to fail because there's no way to present the case to the jury without them hearing what it is about. I haven't seen what happens when defense lawyer does it, but I've seen what happens when someone holds a sign outside the courthouse. – Joshua Jan 12 '22 at 02:57
  • @Stilez A jury is required to use the evidence provided *and only the evidence provided*. If any jury member is found to be looking for/at outside evidence, and a court official or another jury member alerts the judge, the trial is immediately stopped and the whole trial is restarted from the start with a new jury. That jury member is also committing contempt of court and may be prosecuted themselves. – Graham Jan 12 '22 at 12:56
  • @Stilez ... Having been on a jury myself in 2005 (to deal with a pub carpark scuffle), this was clearly stated to us. We were clear amongst ourselves that there were some parts of the evidence where we would have expected the prosecution to produce something to back their case - and since they didn't, we had to be careful not to make inferences which weren't backed by evidence. Basically we all agreed the accused was a nasty little toerag who'd totally deserved to be punched in the first place, but the prosecution didn't give us evidence to prove he did more than just defend himself. – Graham Jan 12 '22 at 13:03
  • @Graham - totally irrelevant, because nothing in this question requires using or learning evidence from outside the courtroom. Awareness of legal process and practice, whether being made aware or already aware, is not "evidence" hence not covered by that rule. Furthermore, knowing it does not require prior disclosure, nor inevitably bar a UK juror, nor is being told of it or hearing of it during the case a reason to retire as juror. (Although jury selection may seek to eliminate, that's no more mandatory than any other prosecutor tactics). – Stilez Jan 12 '22 at 13:43
  • @supercat You are talking about questions of law or politics, neither of which is to be decided by the jury. If they have questions about the law, they can ask the Judge to provide answers. If they have questions about the politics (should we really punish people for this like this?) they can engage in politics in the usual ways (though possibly only after their service, lest they appear to have judged on things other than the evidence). Jury nullification is a loophole. It's not a right, power, or protection, it just becomes possible due to other rights, powers, and protections. – zibadawa timmy Jan 12 '22 at 13:48
  • Though I think there is some (old) case law in the UK that quite explicitly involves invocation of jury nullification as a counter to injustice and abuse of power, it's more of an abstract edge case than a formalized aspect of law. It's just too problematic to enshrine it like that. Juries are far more likely to abuse it than they are to wield it as a mighty weapon of objective and fair justice. In the US we've had extensive experience with white juries refusing to convict white defendants of clear crimes against minorities via jury nullification, for example. – zibadawa timmy Jan 12 '22 at 13:53
  • @Stilez As a simple point of fact, lawyers and judges (in the US at least) are all subject to jury duty and may serve on juries without real issue. A standard question they would be asked during jury selection is "Would you be able to follow this court's instructions on the matter of what the law is?", or some variant thereof. They would almost certainly answer yes as a matter of professionalism and training, but it's an explicit invocation of what is demanded of all jurors: to use and follow the law only as instructed by the court, regardless of your prior knowledge and experience thereof. – zibadawa timmy Jan 12 '22 at 13:57
  • And nullification will not be part of those instructions. Its only difference from, say, sovereign citizen nonsense, is that it happens to have a sound basis in legal theory. You're not supposed to go into jury duty and go "well I heard from Dave that, legally and technically..." unless the court has instructed you of the same things. – zibadawa timmy Jan 12 '22 at 14:01
  • @zibadawatimmy: If statute or case law says that someone may perform action X if they reasonably believe Y, and they say they believed Y because they saw Z, but the opposing party says they're exaggerating, who should decide whether what the person actually saw was sufficient to justify their belief and consequent action? Judges should offer advice as to what kinds of things should be considered reasonable, and what sorts of things unreasonable, but I think questions of witness credibility should fall squarely within a jury's jurisdiction. – supercat Jan 12 '22 at 15:57
  • @supercat That is a determination of fact and so is exactly what the jury is there to determine. But in the US at least, a factual determination of "reasonable" is left to each juror to decide for themselves. Before the trial the judge will have ruled if lawyers can make such an argument in the first place as a matter of law, but once that's done it's up to the jury to decide if the relevant side did or did not prove the "reasonable" whatever. – zibadawa timmy Jan 12 '22 at 23:21
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It isn't; not by any manner of means.

It's the jury's job to find as they see fit, absolutely.

It's the job of every court officer - including the judge - at least to explain that much to the jury and so long as it doesn't in any affect their deliberations, to help the jury achieve what verdict they think fit, absolutely.

Robbie Goodwin
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  • Except apparently it * is *. Forbidden or not allowed to tell or inform, that is. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked the Q..... – Stilez Jan 12 '22 at 01:21
  • @Stilez If that's so, would you rather insist, or explain?

    Despite your lengthy diatribe, everything I said remains true.

    Can you explain how "it * is *. Forbidden or not allowed to tell or inform" works in English?

    – Robbie Goodwin Jan 15 '22 at 01:32
  • Google is your friend for things like this: https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-procedure/jury-nullification.html ("Some judges forbid any mention of jury nullification in the courtroom. Defense attorneys are not allowed to tell the jury that they can ignore the legal instructions of the judge."). Or .... – Stilez Jan 15 '22 at 04:18
  • https://www.famous-trials.com/zenger/99-nullification ("In most jurisdictions, judges instruct jurors that it is their duty to apply the law as it is given to them, whether they agree with the law or not ... Most judges also will prohibit attorneys from using their closing arguments to directly appeal to jurors to nullify the law. Recently, several courts have indicated that judges also have the right ... to remove any juror who makes clear his or her intention .... to nullify.... – Stilez Jan 15 '22 at 04:18
  • Do your research, and ask if it isn't clear. – Stilez Jan 15 '22 at 04:18
  • @Stilez Please consider the ramifications of judges having a right to remove a juror who makes clear an intention to nullify… however slight the probability of anyone making clear that intention.

    Ever-so broadly, that's not far from removing the right to trial in the first place; any trial, not just by jury.

    Am I misremembering how in The First Rebel, John Wayne's character is acquitted by a perverse verdict because the jury recognises the injustice of the colonial law?

    Perhaps pure Hollywood fiction, it's still the legal justification for the American War of Independence

    – Robbie Goodwin Jan 15 '22 at 21:16
  • Robbie - this seems yet again, an off topic thing. This time a plea to me to consider whether something should be okay or not. But its not up to me, is it? I don't need to "consider the ramifications", that's for someone else. Someone in an advocacy role. I'm in a role of telling you how it is, as Run-DMC famously said. ("Its like that.... And that's the way it is.") Debating if that's right or wrong really does matter, but here just isn't the place for it, and I'm not the person for it. Please accept that. – Stilez Jan 15 '22 at 21:46
  • @Stilez Why not go back to the Question? Except your own obdurate and unjustified insistence, nothing in this thread suggests, let alone explains how or why it comes about, that any officer of any court is forbidden from telling a jury anything. Nor do your links. Why is it hard to follow the difference between not having a duty and having a right not to do a thing? Outside the specific realm of nullification, is that not one of the most basic points of law in general?

    Your links showed that one or more judges forbade something… not that there was any argument for their actions. Oops!

    – Robbie Goodwin Jan 30 '22 at 18:47