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The Evektor Harmony LSA & RV-12 SLSA have all the necessary equipment to be certified for IFR flight, except the only engines allowed for purchase are the Rotax 912 ULS & iS. These engines are not allowed in IMC.

Question: Can these planes be certified for IFR, despite the IMC limitation?

  1. if no, can they be used for training for one's instrument rating and for the instrument rating checkride?
  2. if yes, then if one were to be flown into IMC, would be this be a legal violation or a warranty violation?
Farhan
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jt000
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  • Possible duplicate of: http://aviation.stackexchange.com/a/849/167 – Steve V. Jan 12 '15 at 02:55
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    @SteveV. The link doesn't address the above questions unless I'm missing something. From the reference, "prohibit the use of a Rotax engine at night or in IFR conditions". Does this mean that a Rotax 912ULS cannot be used be used for IFR flight plans in VMC? Can it be used for IFR training in VMC? – jt000 Jan 12 '15 at 03:18
  • The other link answers your question – rbp Jan 12 '15 at 06:03
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    IFR and IMC/VMC conditions are two independent concepts, and if the aircraft is certified for IFR flight, then you can fly it under IFR. However, if there is another limitation that prevents you from flying in IMC, then you are not allowed to do so, even if you are allowed to fly under IFR. – Lnafziger Jan 12 '15 at 06:14
  • The other answer does cover most of this, but it doesn't cover the question about instrument training, does it? – Jae Carr Jan 12 '15 at 09:05
  • @Lnafziger - Based on the answer provided by rbp it sounds like if there's a limitation preventing IMC that it would not be possible to get an IFR certificate for the plane. – jt000 Jan 18 '15 at 15:15
  • @jt000 Nothing in his answer actually says that... It says IF it is not type certificated FOR IFR flight.... – Lnafziger Jan 19 '15 at 06:50
  • Why aren't those engines allowed in IMC? – Vikki Oct 09 '21 at 23:53

1 Answers1

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Question: Can these planes be certified for IFR, despite the IMC limitation?

No

Refer to FAA Order 8700.1:

B.  Type Certificate Data. Appropriate type certificate data will indicate whether the aircraft meets the requirements for IFR operations.

(1) Section 91.9(a)prohibits aircraft operations without compliance with the operating limitations for that aircraft prescribed by the certificating authority.

if no, can they be used for training for one's instrument rating and for the instrument rating checkride?

Yes, as per FAA Order 8700.1:

9.  USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A.  IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, 91.109 , 91.205 , and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, 91.411 and 91.413 . An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

For example, you can obtain an Instrument--Rotorcraft in an R44, even though its not legal in IMC.

Although the R44 IFR Trainer was designed for instrument flight training, it is not approved for actual IFR operations. While student pilots are flying on instruments, the instructor must act as the safety pilot and operate only under VFR conditions.

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if yes, then if one were to be flown into IMC, would be this be a legal violation or a warranty violation?

This would be a legal violation of 91.9(a)

91.9(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.

rbp
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  • Regarding the flight training, I wouldn't be able to do all my instrument training in a non-IFR certified plane, since at some point I'd have to file an IFR flight plan (which wouldn't be allowed unless IFR certified), right? – jt000 Jan 18 '15 at 15:17
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    wrong. you can file an IFR flight plan for training purposes so long as the aircraft meets the regs and you remain VMC – rbp Jan 18 '15 at 15:39
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    Interesting... Would I put "Training flight, VMC only" in the remarks section for this or just mention it when opening? – jt000 Jan 18 '15 at 15:56
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    they're not under any obligation to keep you in VMC if you're on an IFR flight plan. that's your responsibility, so don't file unless you're sure you can maintain VMC throughout the flight. As it says in the answer, you must have a IFR-rated pilot acting PIC. – rbp Jan 18 '15 at 16:02
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    That makes a lot of sense. I assume it would be pretty bad form to cancel IFR if they tried to route you into IMC. In Seattle winters, you're almost always 1000' below ceiling, so I could see this being a common occurrence if one were to attempt this out there. – jt000 Jan 18 '15 at 16:17
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    You are PIC. You can cancel anytime you want, so long as you can maintain VFR. In fact, canceling as the weather deteriorates in the direction of flight and turning back towards VFR puts less load on the controller and he'll be thankful to get a bug smasher off his screen. Its much harder the other way around, flying VFR and asking for a "pop-up" IFR clearance puts more, unexpected workload on a controller, and it can take a few minutes before he has time to get you into the system. – rbp Jan 18 '15 at 16:23
  • True. I'm just thinking of the case where you file & open IFR, then their first route brings you into IMC and you immediately close. In that case, it would be better if you could somehow preface the opening of the flight plan only if VMC is possible from ATC's point of view to save them some work. But I get your point. Thanks! – jt000 Jan 18 '15 at 16:39
  • None of your quotes prohibit the aircraft from being certified for IFR flight, which is what the question is about. You are correct that if it were not certified though that it could not do it. – Lnafziger Jan 19 '15 at 06:46
  • Yes, what Lnafziger said. Good info, but the opening paragraph under "No" completely whiffs on the IMC piece... – Michael Hall Jun 12 '22 at 17:36
  • @jt000 ATC is starting to get used to it with the proliferation of LSAs now being used for IFR training. But they’re under no obligation to on to keep you in VMC; it’s your obligation to unable/cancel if their instructions would put you into IMC. – StephenS Jun 12 '22 at 19:44